Episode 15: The Psychology of Sales w/ Dr. Daniel Crosby & Stacy Havener | The Scientist & The Storyteller | What Makes a Powerful Narrative in Financial Services and Investments
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Here’s the deal: stories sell. Powerful narratives lead to big investments. They also lead to something far less flashy yet far more valuable long-term – team buy-in.
Whether you’re a start-up or scaling, your origin story is the glue that binds your allies - AKA your team - to your mission. It’s also the magnet that attracts investors. A stale story just won’t cut it.
Today, Dr. Daniel Crosby and I are joining forces (again) because successful sales and scale are about combining art and science. We’re excited to bring you a deep dive on the art of a good story.
Listen in as I take the hot seat and answer all of your burning questions about what makes a powerful narrative in financial services.
Get ready for a deep dive on:
Why villains aren’t just for the movies – how weaving one into your backstory could take it from snoozefest to a relatable, magnetic movement
Real-life examples of companies with juicy hooks and villains and why they work
Product-driven versus narrative driven - what's the difference?
…and so much more.
You never know exactly what you’re going to get when a scientist and a storyteller walk into a bar, but you know you’ll laugh and gain (proven) strategies that marry the left brain and right brain, giving you an edge in your industry.
About Dr. Daniel Crosby:
Dr. Daniel Crosby is a psychologist, behavioral finance expert, and New York Times bestselling author who helps organizations understand the intersection of mind and markets.
He is also a father of 3, a fanatical follower of the St. Louis Cardinals, an explorer of the American South, and an amateur hot sauce chef.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Books: Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike, The Laws of Wealth: Psychology and the Secret to Investing Success, Principles: Life and Work
TRANSCRIPT
Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.
Stacy Havener: [00:00:00] So in the case of the startup high-growth business, what do you actually have when you start this company? You really have people, first and foremost, who then have this idea, but there's no data, there's no track record. There's really nothing to point to. So, the story pulls people in and aligns them around.
Stacy Havener: Here's where we are today. Here's the problem that we have for which we're going to be a solution, and here's where we're going forward. But you kind of need that grounding. Foundational story to pull people together and rally around something, especially in a startup because you have little outs. So if we take that to the investment world, for instance, if you're a new fund, what are you going to point to?
Stacy Havener: Are you going to point to track record? you don't have it. Are you gonna point to data about what your portfolio is? Yeah, maybe. But that might not even be fully [00:01:00] built out yet. So the origin story is really what allows people. To see themselves on the journey with you. Hey, my name is Stacey Er. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales.
Stacy Havener: Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys Club, wall Street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques, you could say against the odds. Yeah, understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes.
Stacy Havener: It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college, mixed with happy hour. Pull up a seat. Grab your notebook and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you [00:02:00] learn. This is the Billion Dollar Backstory podcast,
Stacy Havener: so a scientist and a storyteller walk into a podcast studio. That's how the story goes, right? Well, that's how it goes here, my friends. I am super excited for this four part mini series with my BFI bestie. Dr. Daniel Crosby, chief Behavioral Officer at Orion and the host of Standard Deviation Podcast. This isn't the first time Daniel and I are teaming up, but it may be the best yet.
Stacy Havener: I've been on his podcast, he's been on mine, and now we are joining forces because successful sales is art and science. It's right brain and left brain. It's Daniel's unique ability and it's mine together. If you wanna get good at selling, you've come to the right place. I don't know, it's kind of like two rappers in the studio, [00:03:00] freestyling.
Stacy Havener: At least that's what I'm telling myself. So stop, collaborate, and listen. Here we go.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Hello and welcome to episode two of the Standard Deviations Billion Dollar Backstory, collab, the Scientist and the Storyteller. I am here with my great friend, Stacey Havener, and we are excited to bring you our second round, uh, where we're talking about all things story and behavioral science.
Stacy Havener: Stacy, welcome back. Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. You know, this collab is my favorite, and our friend Anna suggested that we actually call it the wrapper and the Scientist. Just an alternate idea, throwing it out there for future collabs.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: When you first said the wrapper, I thought that was me, and now I'm very, very disappointed to learn that I remain the scientist.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And you got the cool one. This is gonna be fun. Well, if you haven't listened to episode one yet, go back and hear that. You're gonna learn lots of fascinating [00:04:00] things like why you should swear in your Amazon reviews. So you're gonna learn a lot of good stuff. We'll just drop that teaser and walk away from it.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: You know, last time you were sort of taking the lead and I was providing most of the context. We're gonna switch chairs today. And I'm gonna be picking your brain, asking you all sorts of questions about the art of story. And I wanna start at the very beginning and we're gonna talk about origin stories.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Now, you and I have, we talk all the time and in some of our conversations you have, uh, talked to me about the importance of an origin story and why you believe that. Every company needs a well-crafted origin story. Why is that so important and why does this sort of speak to the authenticity of a brand?
Stacy Havener: It's a great question. You know, that stories are my favorite, but specifically that kind of founder story backstory, origin story is my ultimate fve. So I wanna break it into two groups for a [00:05:00] second. So the first group we're gonna say is a startup. Newer business, maybe in high growth mode. And then we will go to like, well, if you're, is that the same deal if you're a more established brand?
Stacy Havener: Because I do think you need an origin story for both, but maybe for different reasons. So in the case of the startup high growth business, what do you actually have when you start this company? An idea and at least one person, maybe a couple more, who believe that they are the people to make that idea.
Stacy Havener: Real. It's kind of that whole I concept of like, are you betting on the horse or the jockey? In this case, you really have people, first and foremost, who then have this idea, but there's no data, there's no track record. There's really nothing to point to. So the story. Pulls people in and aligns them around.
Stacy Havener: Here's where we are today. Here's the problem that [00:06:00] we have for which we're going to be a solution, and here's where we're going forward. But you kind of need that grounding. Foundational story to pull people together and rally around something, especially in a startup because you have little outs. So if we take that to the investment world, for instance, if you're a new fund, what are you gonna point to?
Stacy Havener: Are you gonna point to track record? You don't have it? Are you gonna point to data about what your portfolio is? Yeah, maybe. But like that might not even be fully built out yet. So the origin story is really what allows people to see themselves on the journey with you. In this instance, what we're talking about is sort of to a client.
Stacy Havener: Customer, prospect, et cetera. Now, if you're in a more, uh, if you're a more established brand, maybe you're not in high growth, you've got lots of employees, you've got lots of customers and clients, you might [00:07:00] be like, well, do we really need that origin story anymore about. You know why we got into this game?
Stacy Havener: Why were, you know the solution for this problem? Maybe not because maybe you're more of a household name, but there's another thing that the origin story does. It's not just an externally facing client focused story. It's also really powerful for bringing. Teammates internal. And a great example of this is actually, you know, I, I partner with Ultimas on our, uh, billion dollar Backstory podcast, and I had the founder of Ultimas on.
Stacy Havener: The show to talk about like the origins of, of Ultimas. Why did the world need another fund transfer agent, admin back office provider? And the feedback from Ultimas afterwards was surprising in that they said there are employees at Altus who've never met [00:08:00] Bob Dorsey. They had never heard that founding story.
Stacy Havener: They had never heard the origin story and how awesome it was for their team to rally around it. So I'll pause there because I think that's a, a use case for origin stories that people don't often think about. I. Now
Dr. Daniel Crosby: the two notes that I just took that were, that were sort of news to me was, you know, you're talking about a startup sort of story is all you have is kind of what I, what I hear you saying.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And I think some people aren't thoughtful about that story at a time when story is all you've got when you're just coming outta the gate. So that's so important. But I love that. That was very unexpected. That was a new learning for me. Is that there's sort of an inward facing benefit too, of helping your employees, helping your people understand, you know, helping them see that they wanna take the journey with you because you've got your clients, your customers who need to want to take the journey with you, but you've also got those internal stakeholders who, who need to take that ride as well.[00:09:00]
Stacy Havener: Yeah, and I think you know the idea of finding your true fans, again, typically that's used to talk about external, like your true fans are your clients, the ones who are gonna pick up whatever you're putting down, whatever you create they're in. But who is your first, first ultimate true fan, your employee?
Stacy Havener: They don't give you dollars per se, to buy a product or a solution that you have, but they give you something more valuable. Their time, their energy, their effort, their commitment and loyalty to you on the mission. And if you're not taking care of that, if you're not reminding them of Here's why we're doing this, here's where we came from, you're really missing a huge opportunity.
Stacy Havener: We'll be back in a moment after a word from our premier brand partner Ultimas Fund Solutions.
Stacy Havener: Since our founding in 1989, we believe that alternative investments are integral part of [00:10:00] client portfolios. Unfortunately, delivering high quality hedge funds and private market exposures has always been a challenge for the wealth management industry. These type of alternative investments introduce unique challenges related to taxes, qualifications, paperwork, and reporting.
Stacy Havener: As a result, high net worth investors tend to be significantly under allocated to both hedge funds and private markets relative to institutional investors. That's Stephanie Lang, chief Investment Officer from Homrich Berg, an $11 billion R I a, headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia. That serves over 2,700 clients in 46 states.
Stacy Havener: You can tell they believe in helping high net worth clients, access hedge funds and other alternative investments. They're equally as passionate about broadening that access. For all their clients, not just qualified purchasers or a select group of accredited investors. [00:11:00] Meet Nick Darsh from Ultimas with some backstory.
Stacy Havener: Ekberg created a three C one fund in January, 1999 to provide their high net worth and institutional investors with ready access to a diversified portfolio of hedge funds. As interest in the fund grew and the constraint of the a hundred investor rule loomed. HB began exploring ways to continue expanding the investor pool without negatively affecting existing shareholders.
Stacy Havener: We'll hear more about the creative fund conversion work that made it possible later in the show. Now, back to the program.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: You know, I think about that at at Orion. You know the story of the Clark family and how Orion the tech company grew from this very organic need. That Eric Clark's dad had, uh, for, for effectively what was an R i A I. And it's this wonderful story of this sort of grassroots movement [00:12:00] that was created out of a very organic need, a family business.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And that's always a story that I've been a proud to be a part of. You know, I was looking up in, as part of my preparation for this, I was looking up sort of famous backstories, you know, companies with great backstories. And as part of this, I learned something really. Really disturbing. I learned that Google used to be called
Stacy Havener: back rub.
Stacy Havener: I actually don't believe it and I'm not Googling it because it seems very back rub it.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: You said back rub it. Like, do you see how problematic that is? Like if my kids ask me like, that can't be true. Listen. Chat. G P T wouldn't lie to me, but like if my kids ask me how much does a blue whale weigh? I'll say, oh, let me back rub it.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Like not great. It's an HR problem candidly. So we're not going with Google, but what are some examples of great origin stories? You gave a great one there and like that very specific use case. Are there other companies that you think do a great job [00:13:00] of, of telling this origin story? So
Stacy Havener: let's take a company that's not in financial services and then we'll take one that is So Nike, we'll take something that every a brand everyone knows.
Stacy Havener: An iconic brand, probably one of the most like well-known logos in the world. Did you read Shoe Dog? I did
Dr. Daniel Crosby: read Shoe Dog. Yeah. And I'm watching Air right now. I'm about halfway through. It's really good.
Stacy Havener: Is it? So I haven't watched air yet, but that's on my list. I read Shoe Dog almost in one sitting. I mean, it's a great story and it's basically the origin story.
Stacy Havener: It's the founder's backstory and the origin story all weaved into one. The differentiation I'll give on sort of founder's backstory and origin story for me, and I think everybody sort of uses these terms differently. The founder's backstory is the story of the person, so that would be Bill Bowerman or Phil Knight.
Stacy Havener: What was their journey to starting Nike? The origin story for me is a little [00:14:00] bit different. It's more about why did we create this company or this product, or this solution. What's the backstory to that thing? Not the people per se. So in the case of Nike, I mean the origin story was really around running and it was around shoes.
Stacy Havener: Now obviously it's evolved so much from there, but you had a fabulous runner track coach at at Oregon, and then you had. You know the, so coach and star athlete, people who loved sports, that origin story. It's something we all probably know really well without even realizing. We know it because Nike weaves it into everything.
Stacy Havener: Even their new stuff. I mean now it's like skateboarding and every sport. What's at the center of all of that? A shoe. I. It's always about the shoes, and so I think it's a great, maybe [00:15:00] relatable example of an origin story that has evolved. There's certainly an established brand. Do they still need it? Yeah, I think they do.
Stacy Havener: And that book is just a great example of an origin story unpacked.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: You know, I'm at the part in air where they're trying to recruit. Their basketball division is very weak. And you know, they're interviewing Phil Knight and he says like, look, I forget the number, but you know, we had like the running lock market on lock and you know, the basketball division folks are like, look, these kids that are gonna be buying our basketball shoes don't look up to Decathletes.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Right. And it's sort of a different animal. And you know, now I think of Nike as almost being more like a streetwear brand. Like a Supreme or something because of the ascendancy of their skateboarding line and their basketball line and things like that. But at the heart of it, it's always great athletes and great athletics, right?
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Like it's always the shoe. It's always great athletes and great athletics, and they celebrate, you know, Nike [00:16:00] is the God of victory, right? Right. God is a victory and they're celebrating that journey and the shoe's place in that journey. And it's a consistent backstory that that has been applied across all these different lines.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Now, like
Stacy Havener: you say, Totally. Yeah, it's a great example and it's very relatable, I think. Okay, so now let's go to the financial services industry, which is totally more obscure and quite frankly, it's difficult to find a strong, compelling origin story in, in the investment world. Hence like my reason for being, I have one that was a recent story session for me, which was the team at Schroeders.
Stacy Havener: So the team at Schroeder's, Schroeder's is a very big place. I think it's like, I don't know, $800 billion. It's definitely a big, but inside of Schroeder's, there's a value team and it very much runs like a boutique. And so I've become friends with some of the people [00:17:00] there, and they have a great podcast as well.
Stacy Havener: And they asked me, I was on there. Podcast and they asked me to come back and interview their team, which was super fun. And I asked 'em about the origin story of their product, their pro, their, their flagship strategy has like a ridiculous track record. It's like over 50 years. And I said, how did the strategy come to be?
Stacy Havener: And this is so cool. They said, well, the origin story is an urban myth. And just that alone, I was like, done. Everyone needs an urban myth as their origin story because you're like, what do you mean? I need to know more about this? This is crazy. And there were two versions, and I'm not gonna spoil the story.
Stacy Havener: If you wanna hear it, go check out their podcast. But the two versions were very different. And one of the most interesting things at the end was they said, We kind of don't wanna know which one is right. There is a truth, not the truth. And we sort of love both of these [00:18:00] stories and I thought, gosh, that is just so different and cool.
Stacy Havener: And what a way to weave narrative into your, again, internal conversations with your team, but also with clients who doesn't love the idea of an urban myth. Yeah,
Dr. Daniel Crosby: no shrouded in mystery, like it's gonna lead us nicely to our next one. Before we go to our next one though, I gotta make one comment about a financial services organization with a great backstory.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: How do I know this? I know this because I try not to do this. But I slipped up the other day and I checked my reviews on Amazon for my, for my books, and you should never do this. It's like, best case, you're fine. Like if it's all fives. Worst case, you're very upset. I. My most recent review on the Laws of Wealth was a two star from someone whose entire rationale was that I had not mentioned Jack Bogle in my book.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And you think about [00:19:00] Bogleheads, you think about Vanguard and that origin story. It's a compelling one to the point that people are running around giving two star reviews to books that don't pay homage to Jack Bogle when they're not even books about indexing.
Stacy Havener: Oh, it's a great one. And I, they're an example later on when, when we go through some of the other questions.
Stacy Havener: But I think a perfect example of origin story, because again, you can see, I mean, does Vanguard really need to be telling the Jack Bogle story today? They're the largest, you know, one and two asset manager in the world. Do they really have to be weaving narrative into what they do? The answer is yes. Yeah, still are.
Stacy Havener: Still are because you have Bogleheads, right? I mean, you have people who are like, that is true fan, that they would go and give your, your book two stars. 'cause they're like, what the F though? Did they say what the F? 'cause then it would've been maybe a more popular review.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: No, no. Remember, F gets you [00:20:00] docked.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: No,
Stacy Havener: just F I didn't say the word. Oh, yeah, yeah,
Dr. Daniel Crosby: yeah. They didn't spell it out. Yeah. Yeah. No. F asterisk, asterisk, asterisk would've been fine. Yeah. Go listen to the first one. You'll know what we're talking about. So we're gonna change the order of our conversation a little bit. 'cause the urban myth piece leads me to one of the next things that I hear you talk about a lot.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: A writer would call it conflict, maybe a storyteller would call it hook. And sort of you're talk about the urban myth piece. Like you just sort of assume that an asset manager's backstory is gonna be kind of boring. Well, I do, of course. Right? Like you, you sort of assume that it's gonna be kind of kind of every day and you're like, urban myth, like, tell me more.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: So let's talk about this. I have a quote from Donald Miller here that I really like. And it says, you can't tell a good story without conflict. The story can't be meaningful or beautiful. We're taught to run from conflict and it's robbing us of some really good stories. So talk to us about the importance of [00:21:00] a hook or conflict in telling a corporate brand story.
Stacy Havener: Yeah. Well, I think the most important thing you said right there was the fact that you inserted corporate and before sort of brand story or just corporate brand, anything before story. Because what we can't change is human behavior. I mean, you're the one I. To tell us that humans react to stories in a certain arc, in a certain way, in a certain pattern.
Stacy Havener: And if you try to break that, it's not as effective. And so before we even get to like corporate or brand or anything, we have to go to like what fundamentally makes a story powerful, meaningful, beautiful. And if you don't have conflict, do you even have a story? I mean, you have a hero, you have a villain, which hopefully we'll talk about villains later too.
Stacy Havener: But the hero has to be [00:22:00] doing something for there even to be a story. And so if we take like, I don't know, any movie, the movie taken with Liam Neeson or whatever that guy's name is, I mean, there's really high stakes. The conflict can't just be like how I stubbed my toe. Or like my daughter went to the mall and she forgot to call for an hour, but she's back home.
Stacy Havener: It's like, why do I wanna watch that movie? It has to be, the stakes have to be much higher. That gives us something to sort of anchor around. Yes, from a plot perspective, but also what's powerful, what you want to have happen with a story is you want the listener, or the viewer, or or the reader to be on the journey with you.
Stacy Havener: And in order for that to happen, they have to have empathy, sympathy, some sort of emotion that they're sharing with that character. And so that conflict, [00:23:00] that shared human connection is what invites that listener in and says, okay, now we're gonna go through this together. It makes you care. It gives you a reason to care, to cheer for them to be engaged in that narrative, and that doesn't change whether it's Hollywood or Wall Street.
Stacy Havener: It's the same concept and typically what you'd see for a conflict. Some kind of test. Could be a physical test, a mental test, a spiritual test, but there's some obstacle that that hero is gonna face. And again, the stakes and that tension need to be high or no one cares. We'll be back in a moment after a word from our premier brand partner, Ultimas Fund Solutions.
Stacy Havener: When we first launched our internal fund to funds as a limited partnership, it was a great option for us to be able to provide a hundred of our accredited and qualified [00:24:00] purchaser clients with access to a diversified portfolio of hedge fund strategies. However, fast forward to 2016, our firm had grown to manage over 4 billion and serve over a thousand clients of various sizes, accreditations, and tax situations.
Stacy Havener: We still firmly believe that high quality hedge fund exposure is important to client portfolios. It provides stability. To client portfolios and generates a return stream that was not available in public and equity and fixed income markets. Unfortunately, the three C one structure with its slot limitations high minimums and K one reporting was no longer ideal solution for our growing.
Stacy Havener: And complex client base. We looked at various alternative options with third party hedge fund managers, liquid hedge mutual funds, but also discovered that we had an opportunity to register our fund with the S E C Preserve its extensive track record, and solve all of the issues that the three C one structure [00:25:00] was creating for our business and clients.
Stacy Havener: That's when we teamed up with Ultimas to begin the process of registering our legacy fund. With the SS E C and converting it to a tender offer fund. We'll hear more later in the show. Now, back to the program.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: I have a very specific set of skills kind of line running through my head for the rest of the day, but, um, It's clear to me what that needs to look like in film or literature, right? It needs to be dangerous, suspense, drama. Do we want those things in our brand pitches or how do we make people care if it's not dangerous?
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Suspense, murder and intrigue. Like how, what sort of the formula for making people care about our
Stacy Havener: brand. Yeah. Well, it's a great question and I think it has to start with who you serve, right? Because you as a [00:26:00] company or as a brand, aren't probably gonna manufacture any hotness around this conflict. Again, the story, you're not the hero.
Stacy Havener: So the story you're telling when you're a corporation or a brand is not actually about you. It's about the person that you serve, and so you have to step out of that boardroom and out of like your ivory tower and you have to get yourself into the shoes of whomever you're serving. So, I mean, shoes seems like a great segue back to Nike.
Stacy Havener: So like what was the problem? Right? I mean, Nike was serving runners when they first started and they wanted to make a shoe that was lighter, more durable, that would help these runners go faster, farther, all those things. So that is the conflict, right? The conflict is how they're not doing that or they're losing a race.
Stacy Havener: And, you know, everybody can relate to what that feels like. We've all had a race, whether it's in our front yard, against our, you know, neighbor or on some very high [00:27:00] stakes platform. So it doesn't have to be murder or death or, or intrigue per se, but it has to be something that matters to the people you serve.
Stacy Havener: That I think is where corporations and brands and certainly asset management companies get it wrong because they sit around talking about themselves and saying sort of like, okay, like what's the story? They're not gonna come up with any conflict because in their minds, you know, it's sort of. They're the solution and it's rainbows and unicorns, and that's what they wanna talk
Dr. Daniel Crosby: about.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Yeah. This is a point that I think bears reemphasizing, which is you have to make the customer the hero and you have to make it interesting to them. And I think that's so difficult. Like we're all so. Ego driven. We're also solid cystic like I think that we think that our story is fascinating and a lot of times our fascination with ourselves can kind of obscure that focus on the customer.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: What are some brands that get this right? What are some brands [00:28:00] that get making the customer the hero of the journey with a good hook?
Stacy Havener: So I pulled one that I didn't go with the big brands anymore. I wanted to give some examples that were a little more off the run. Have you ever heard of a company called Lavender?
Stacy Havener: I have not. Okay. So Lavender is a sales email tool. Okay. And they have great branding. They're VC-backed, they're awesome. You can follow 'em on LinkedIn and their whole thing is, Salespeople write shitty emails and shitty emails don't work. And that's the high stakes conflict. So let me tell you where those high stakes are.
Stacy Havener: It's basically winning in business or losing. I. Right, because what it's saying is, if I'm a company and I have salespeople and they can't write good emails, I'm not gonna get any leads. I'm not gonna get any new opportunities. I'm not gonna close any deals. So this is actually a really big [00:29:00] problem, right?
Stacy Havener: Salespeople also, if they're the hero. So the one thing is you could be. Lavender pitching to the corporation like, Hey, you should at an enterprise level, deploy lavender for your sales team. Or if your target market, who you're speaking to is an actual salesperson, it's kind of the same thing, right? Like, do you wanna close more deals because, hi, you're in sales and that's how you get paid.
Stacy Havener: So if you wanna get paid and you wanna close more deals, you might wanna write less shitty emails, like maybe make your emails better. So that's an example of a company that's taking something that seems so basic, so, and made it more like this is winning or losing in business. We're gonna actually tie that to how good your emails are.
Stacy Havener: We're gonna help you fix that
Dr. Daniel Crosby: problem. Now, I wanna use the lavender example to sort of reinforce a point that I've heard you speak about before, which is that your branding efforts and your narrative efforts should really turn off as many people as they attract. And when I [00:30:00] hear, you know, don't write crappy emails, it's like there's a subset of marketers who are offended by that or don't see themselves, who don't see themselves in that message, right?
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And will never do business with them. Am I right in thinking that?
Stacy Havener: Absolutely. And also if you check them out on LinkedIn, you'll see even more attract and repel sort of marketing going on. You know, lavender, they're very into the color purple because their name is lavender. You know, they have a whole video series with a character called Lavender Joe, who is randomly in the park and yells out like typical cold email sales language.
Stacy Havener: And it's really great, but there are certainly people who are like, that is unprofessional. Yeah. Right? And that's what you want. Not to be unprofessional, but you want to say like, this is who we are and as people, as a company, these are our values. Here's our culture. [00:31:00] And if we're not vibing, like that's okay.
Stacy Havener: There's probably another company out there that helps you write emails and they're probably pretty good, so go find them. Right
Dr. Daniel Crosby: now I want to go see Lavender Joe. 'cause in my mind it's kind of like Joe
Stacy Havener: Camel. It's so good and he wears a neon green suit. It's one of those things where you're like, wow, what would lavender do?
Stacy Havener: And then I sort of have to walk it back like, 20, 30 yards. 'cause I'm not that jazzy, but it's really a great company to look at in terms of brand story and, and how they're building their tribe.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Yeah, I like that. I mean, you think about any movie, right? The, whether it's action or comedy or drama or whatever, there's a hook that's gonna work for some people like enthusiasts of that genre.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And that's gonna be completely obnoxious and repellent to other folks. And like, that's fine. There's a lot of businesses, there's a lot of. A media go get what works for you. But I think a lot of times people try and split the difference and just end up being inoffensive and [00:32:00] having no hook at all.
Stacy Havener: Totally. That's the worst place. That's like brand purgatory. So let me give you one that's a financial services example. Also polarizing in a different way. So have you heard of a company called Even Tide?
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Yes, a
Stacy Havener: bit. Okay, so even Tide, they have about 6 billion under management or so founded by a gentleman named, I think it's Robin, John, and even Tide is kind of E S G impact investing.
Stacy Havener: Okay. And with some Christian values really embedded in that. Now, that's the polarizing part. Right. They are four people. Who want their investments to align with their values. They don't believe that you should sacrifice what you believe and how you live your life in order to [00:33:00] generate return. Now, I think that's sort of the, the basis of E S G in general.
Stacy Havener: But what's interesting, if you go and, and check out their website, there's a great video about their origin story and you just kind of read their language and how they show up. It's different. They live it, they own it. This is not like we hopped on the like E S G greenwashing bandwagon and we're just gonna like see how this flies.
Stacy Havener: There is a very distinct feel to what they're doing. There's also a page on there I really liked, which was, um, they call it their 1% initiative where they allocate 1% of their a u m to lift people out of poverty. With dignity and that last little bit of that phrase really got me and they kind of unpack all the ways they're doing it.
Stacy Havener: Like it's just really awesome branding. And again, to your point, it has some [00:34:00] attract and rappel in it. But I think that's what makes it powerful. So the conflict here, if we take it down to like, if you're an investment manager, how do you get conflict? You don't have, you know, murder and intrigue and, and all these crazy things.
Stacy Havener: The conflict is exactly this, that if I want to invest in alignment with my values, I think I have to sacrifice return in order to do that. And that's actually a problem. It's not, I'm looking for return, I'm looking for performance. It's bigger than that. I think
Dr. Daniel Crosby: that's such a compelling message. 'cause I, if you think about sort of the psychology of Tesla, right?
Dr. Daniel Crosby: I mean I think Tesla's great advancement was that it's a brand that sits at the performance of giving a darn about the earth and high performance, right? Like, 'cause previous to Tesla. It's like you were driving a Prius. No offense to the Prius owners out there, but it's like if you wanted to be. Sort of green with the car you drove.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: [00:35:00] It was gonna look kind of dumpy. It was gonna not be able to take a hill, this sort of thing. So
Stacy Havener: like a lawnmower,
Dr. Daniel Crosby: right? And so Tesla kind of came in and said, no, like you can do good things for the earth and you can have all the performance of any car. And I was in a Porsche take on this weekend and it was.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Like we're getting there in a big way. Right. But I think they were the first ones to do it and to say, you can have the best of both worlds. So I, I love that approach. And I think E S G is inherently has a hook. I mean, there's almost no value so benign that it's not gonna make half the people angry at this point.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And so I think E S G inherently has a hook, so, Ask yourself, does your brand have this hook? Okay. We have saved the best for last because I am super excited to talk about this. We spoke about this the other day. I'm super excited to hear you expound on it a bit. You say that just like a regular story, every [00:36:00] brand story needs a villain.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: You know, I had fun thinking back over some of my favorites. Joker, Darth Vader, Hannibal Lecter. We get this for stories, but tell us why a business narrative needs a villain.
Stacy Havener: So villains, it's interesting, I'm looking for my notes on this 'cause this is my favorite, one of my favorite parts too, and I have to share this story.
Stacy Havener: So I have a six year old daughter and a couple birthdays ago, maybe it was like for her four year old birthday, when I asked her, what do you want? The theme of your party to be, and this is like whenever, you know, a lot of her friends were doing Princess or like, you know, unicorn or whatever, and she said, I want it to be a villain party.
Stacy Havener: And I thought, oh my. So I thought, oh my gosh, this is horrible. So I mean, I did, I was like, wow, something's really wrong. So we did, we had a villain party and it was like themed after Maleficent and stuff. And as I've watched her kind of [00:37:00] grow into this and she still really vibes off the villain and I realized why her mom is
Dr. Daniel Crosby: a sociopath.
Stacy Havener: So that could be so, because when the villain comes on the screen, Here's what she does. Like she'll take a wand or whatever, like her quote, you know, weapon is, and she's like, mom, stand back. I got this. So like, just pause and think about that. The villain gives the hero a purpose. Without the villain, there can't be a hero.
Stacy Havener: What are they heroing around. And so it's kind of a personification of the conflict. And maybe this is just a story I'm telling myself about my daughter, but I really, I watch her like she jumps out of her seat and she'll stand this far from the TV where I have to be like, will it don't actually hit the TV though?
Stacy Havener: Like I get it. You're fighting the villain, but like, And I'm there for it. So [00:38:00] that's the vibe. The villain is as important as the hero because without the villain, the sort of personification of the conflict, do you even have a story? Can you even have a hero?
Dr. Daniel Crosby: I love that story about her, right? I mean, it's what empowers her to be her best self.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: She has to have something to fight against for her to be sort of her righteous, best, heroic
Stacy Havener: self. Isn't it amazing? And that I didn't realize that until I saw that pattern happening over and over. So now she has like a villain book and she wants to review all the villains and, and sort of, it's strange, but whatever.
Stacy Havener: I, I'm here for it. So if you think about, Villains. And I'm curious, I wanna hear, I know you mentioned some of your favorites, but I hope we can do more with this. I'm revisiting all the Harry Potter books right now, and you think about what is the conflict in Harry Potter at its like very, very base level.
Stacy Havener: It's good verse evil, right? You have Harry Potter [00:39:00] verse Voldemort. So Voldemort is the villain, but he gives us some something, some one that we can sort of. Point to and simplify versus this big esoteric concept of evil. And you teach us that. Like if your brain wants things simple, it doesn't want complexity and evil as a concept.
Stacy Havener: It, we all know it intuitively, but to have a villain that you can say sort of, that's the bad guy. Or a bad gal that allows us to sort of process the story in a different way. I'd be curious what you think about the villain as a behavioral scientist.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: You know, when I was a therapist, I would actually have people do this, and I, I have to admit, I found it's a therapeutic technique.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: I found it enormously hokey at first, but then I saw how much it worked. I would have people sort of [00:40:00] personify, say their depression, you know, and say, How tall is it? You know, how large is it? What does it look like? What's the texture? And it would be like, oh, it's this black giant that's sitting on my chest and won't let me breathe.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: And like, like you said, so many of the things we wrestle against in our daily lives are sort of unbodied, right? They're sort of amorphous. They're out there. And we like the idea of a Voldemort where we can sort of encapsulate like evil incarnate. I mean, I think. We could get way down a path here, but I think that's why the idea of the devil like appeals to some people too.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Like we, like, we like a personified evil that we can rage
Stacy Havener: against. Yes, exactly. So that's why you need a villain now. I think what's super interesting, so we just did like story and and literature and very, very classic literature. But then if you wanna take that to your corporate brand, it kind of goes back to [00:41:00] other things.
Stacy Havener: So you're like, okay, how do I translate that to my business because I don't have Voldemort in my business? And I think what's interesting when you take it to sort of the corporate branding setting, is that the natural place we wanna go When somebody says, well, who's the villain in your story? Is where.
Stacy Havener: To our competitor. So let's go back to Nike. You'd be like, oh, well their competitors Adidas, duh. Like that's the villain in the story. But is it because even though as viewers of a movie or readers of a book, we wanna personify that villain, sometimes the villain on the corporate setting or the business setting, Is not another company.
Stacy Havener: It could be something like an old way of doing things. So if your Salesforce was the villain in your Story act, do you remember ACT database [00:42:00] or was it an old way of doing database work? Right. And that is a huge unlock from a business storytelling perspective. Because even if you go back to like our lavender example, is the villain in the story another group that does email, you know, an email platform?
Stacy Havener: Or is it crappy emails? Is that actually the villain is for Nike? You know, like what? Who's the villain? It's not actually Adidas, maybe it's your, you know, just do it is their slogan. So maybe the villain for Nike is actually. Your own self-limiting beliefs.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Yeah, I was gonna say apathy, right? Like inaction, self-limiting belief.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Yeah.
Stacy Havener: So I think it's interesting because it does, it's good to personify the villain in story 'cause that is kind of where we wanna go. But the danger is when you take that to business narrative, you wanna point to your competitor. [00:43:00] And I don't necessarily think that's the right direction to
Dr. Daniel Crosby: point. I think that could even really backfire.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: I mean, I've seen that play out in our space, and I won't name names, but it's like, you know, I've, I've seen one business attack, another business vary, like directly, and it just wasn't well received. I mean, it was seen as kind of a low blow or tacky. I. So if you think about businesses in our space, like Vanguard's villain is fees, right?
Dr. Daniel Crosby: You know, Nike's villain is, is apathy or, or inaction. I love thinking about it that way, like you're fighting against some evil force, but it's not another person necessarily. It's not your competitor. It's whatever sort of is impeding the progress of the people you serve.
Stacy Havener: Yeah, I think that's it. Let's do more of those.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Okay, so we're gonna do lightning, lightning round. Okay. Apple, what's the villain? All
Stacy Havener: right, let's both do this. So Apple, well, what's the first thing you think of? Well,
Dr. Daniel Crosby: simplicity and elegant design like the villain is,
Stacy Havener: well, no, [00:44:00] that's you. The first thing most people think of is probably what? Microsoft. Oh yeah.
Stacy Havener: Microsoft, right? I mean that. So again, it's like your brain wants to instantly go to their biggest competitor, but now do the actual, like walk us through your thinking on it. Yeah,
Dr. Daniel Crosby: so, well, it's actually sort of related to Microsoft. 'cause I think, you know, you think Microsoft and you go, well no, it's, they're in favor of simplicity and elegant design and, well, Microsoft isn't
Stacy Havener: so, so, no.
Stacy Havener: So the villain isn't necessarily Microsoft. It's kind of that old way of doing things, right? Like Apple, you know, the conflict for Apple is. Do computers and tech need to be boring in order to be good, and they've proven that no, you can actually be cool and hip and sleek and modern and artistic and still be a like, you know, geek Squad.
Stacy Havener: Yeah. $3
Dr. Daniel Crosby: trillion company, right?
Stacy Havener: Yeah. Okay. That wasn't very [00:45:00] lightning, so I'm probably blowing this, so I apologize. Bridgewater, this one's yours. Okay. Bridgewater, this is an interesting one. Bridgewater largest hedge fund in the world. I dunno if that's still the case. Okay. I would say the villain for Bridgewater is probably themselves.
Stacy Havener: So they are at the top. There's only one other direction for them, right? There's only one way to go from where they are. So the biggest danger they have. Is themselves. And that's why I think you see Ray Dalio coming out with books like Principles. He's not coming out with like, here's how to Generate Alpha Book by Ray Dalio.
Stacy Havener: He's coming out with like, here's how to run a company and build a culture the way we've done it, Bridgewater, and oh by the way, we're gonna be totally crazy and dogmatic about these principles because we know. That now we're in, like we're defending our position and [00:46:00] the on the one who could really screw that up is us.
Stacy Havener: Yeah,
Dr. Daniel Crosby: I love that. And like you said, his whole thing's about radical candor, principles, honesty, feedback. It's not like here's how you run a long, short equity fund. It's, you know, here's how you stay on top. Okay, the last one we'll do is your business. I know you're thoughtful about this. What's your business's enemy?
Stacy Havener: Okay. So I think that people would assume the villain in the story for us. I. Would be the bigs because we stand for the boutiques, which would mean the, the villain would be the bigs. And I actually don't think that's the case. I think the villain for us is status quo, is that the industry and the status quo and sort of the rules and the norms in this, in the investment world favor the bigs, and that's the thing that needs to change.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Disrupting the status quo. I love it. Well, you're excellent [00:47:00] at it. Okay, so we're out of time, but I want you to end with one thing we gotta give the people. We've talked about origin story, we've talked about a hook, we've talked about villains today. If people are bought into this, but they don't know quite where to get started, what's one concrete place you would encourage people to start?
Stacy Havener: You know, I think it's interesting to do an exercise around what you don't do. I think a lot of branding firms say, well, figure out like what makes you different and what your edge is, and what I'm saying will get you there, but from a different direction. So it's almost like it's almost, you know, sort of turning this construct on its head.
Stacy Havener: Look at what your peers do, look at what the industry says. Look at, you know, kind of what is status quo in your business, and then reflect back for yourself about what you don't do. That everybody else does, and I think that will start to get you to some places of [00:48:00] what makes you different. As far as origin story, I would say, you know, it is basically backstory, but the biggest hack is to just like, just get outta your own.
Stacy Havener: Like stop talking your own book. Stop thinking about yourself. Sit in a room and pretend that you are your own client and be that person. Go through. Like, why should I care about your company, your people, and what's in it for me? Because that's what most firms miss. Yeah.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Stacy, you're incredible at this.
Dr. Daniel Crosby: Thank you as always for sharing your wisdom and folks, you heard it here first start today to better understand these things and to move yourself in the direction of being a better storyteller. Two down. Two to go. Stacy can't wait for the next
Stacy Havener: installment. Yeah, high five, my friend. It's always a pleasure.
Stacy Havener: Thank you. If you know a fund manager or a founder in the investment world with a great story, drop a note to [00:49:00] stacy@stacyhaer.com and tell me about it. Till next time, I'm Stacy Haer. Thanks for listening. And now a final word from our premier brand partner, Ultimas Fund Solutions. The conversion of Hoer Berg's LP into an interval fund empowered them to grow the fund from 90 million to over 200 million and expand the reach from 100 investors to nearly 700 new investors and continues to grow today.
Stacy Havener: By pursuing the conversion eight Hoer Berg was able to lower minimums to 25,000 welcome accredited investors in addition to qualified purchasers. The entire conversion process was highly efficient. Berg chose partner with. Ultimas and other partners with a proven track record. In this type of structure to structure product transition, the headlines are often too focused on new interval funds from pedigree providers, this new fund from this cool big firm, et cetera.
Stacy Havener: Maximizing a fund's [00:50:00] potential through a conversion can be a powerful too, as we see in that story of Hallmark Berg. Traditional investment management and alternative investment management are conversion. More retail investors are demanding access to non-correlated strategies in illiquid asset classes to compliment or supplement public markets exposure.
Stacy Havener: Interval and tender offer funds, offer managers a flexible wrapper. That combines many of the benefits of both 1940 ACT and private fund structures. Interest in these products has increased significantly in the past decade, and we anticipate the volume of both new launches and structure conversions to continue well into the future.
Stacy Havener: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment [00:51:00] decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy. Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance.
Stacy Havener: All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Haner or Haven or Capital Partners.
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