Episode 47:$83B Investment Strategist Doug Huber of Wealth Enhancement Group on the Evolution of Manager Research | Why Qualitative Matters in Due Diligence
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Fund buyers know investing is more of an art than a math equation.
Not convinced? After listening to this interview with Doug Huber, VP of Investment Strategy at Wealth Enhancement Group, you will be.
Get a glimpse inside the mind of an allocator in part 3 of our Ask an Allocator series, where Stacy and Doug discuss:
His Backstory – from car fanatic and aspiring engineer to earning a dual degree in finance and economics and becoming an $83B Investment Strategist
Red flags that drive allocators away (even if you have an impressive track)
Why he analyzes boutiques very differently than he does big firms – and the importance of conveying your value as a partner, NOT the perfect investor
About Doug Huber:
Doug leads the firm’s Investment Strategy Group, which consists of three teams focused on external manager research (across both traditional and alternative investment strategies), fundamental equity research, and fixed-income research. He joined Wealth Enhancement Group in 2021 through the North American Management merger, where he was the Director of Manager Research. Before joining North American Management, he was a Senior Research Analyst at Federal Street Advisors, where he led the alternative investment program. Doug is an avid golfer and lives in Lincoln, MA with his wife and two children.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Songs: AC/DC - Thunderstruck, Billy Squier - Lonely Is The Night
Transcript
Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Doug Huber: When we are analyzing managers, I think about it in a high level, right? Our job is twofold and I'll use kind of an analogy here. I think we have to go out and find the best athletes. But we also have to build the best team. And sometimes the second best athlete is a better fit for your team than the superstar, right?
[00:00:21] Stacy Havener: Hey, my name is Stacey Havener. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys club, wall street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques. You could say against the odds.
[00:00:41] Stacy Havener: Yeah, understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales, and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think [00:01:00] of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college, mixed with happy hour.
[00:01:06] Stacy Havener: Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the Billion Dollar Backstory Podcast.
[00:01:19] Stacy Havener: There's a view that investing, much like math, is black and white, scientific. When the truth is, investing is also an art. It's a blend. It's nuanced. Today's conversation dives deep into the narratives and nuances that make investing special. It's not the binary approaches or outcomes that many people think it is.
[00:01:44] Stacy Havener: Enter today's guest, Doug Huber. Doug is the VP investment strategy at Wealth Enhancement Group, an 83 billion national wealth management firm with about 140 advisors on their platform. [00:02:00] Doug leads external manager research at the firm across traditional and alternative strategies. And manager research has been his jam for over 15 years.
[00:02:10] Stacy Havener: At one count, Doug was doing 450 manager meetings a year. Yeah. Wow. He's analyzed bigs and boutiques, seen some challenges and some incredible opportunities. He's learned a thing or two, and today he'll share some of those learnings with us. Without further ado, let's dive in. Meet my friend, Doug Huber. Doug, thank you so much for being here.
[00:02:40] Stacy Havener: We're kind of like neighbors, but not really neighbors because you're in Boston and I'm in Newport and I know you love Newport, so this is just a fun conversation for me after knowing you for many years. Thanks for being here.
[00:02:54] Doug Huber: Well, thank you for having me on.
[00:02:56] Stacy Havener: So we have to start at the beginning. [00:03:00] We have to start with your journey, with your backstory, before we get into some of the questions that I know our listeners want to hear, like just how you think about.
[00:03:10] Stacy Havener: You know manager due diligence and all that stuff. We're going to get there But tell me about your journey Like did you always know that you wanted to be in investments were your parents in investments? Like how did this all come to be?
[00:03:23] Doug Huber: Yeah. No, I laughed because no I absolutely did not You know, I actually went to college as an engineering major.
[00:03:29] Doug Huber: I've always been a big car guy thought i'd want to do engineering and Build car engines or something like that. And after about a year of that, I realized that was not what I wanted to do. So took a year off. I was putting myself through school. So I took a year off, kind of did a little soul searching and, you know, went back to school with an open mind, uh, really found out that I was interested in finance and economics, accounting, and so decided that kind of business and finance was the way to go, uh, ended up at Babson and Wellesley and ended up graduating there with a dual degree in finance and [00:04:00] economics.
[00:04:00] Stacy Havener: I mean, could we just turn this into a podcast about cars? Because I'm here for that.
[00:04:05] Doug Huber: We could, but I don't know if we have enough time. I don't
[00:04:07] Stacy Havener: know if we have enough time. That's fascinating. So, how did that, like, tell me about the car thing. Because I grew up with a dad who was, you know, restoring cars, collecting cars.
[00:04:20] Stacy Havener: What was the car piece for you?
[00:04:22] Doug Huber: Yeah, you know, I think if I had to pinpoint it, I'm not sure I necessarily could, but I remember, geez, I was probably in like first or second grade. And back in those days, you did like magazine drives and stuff. And I think, you know, one of my grandmothers got me a subscription to Motor Trend or something like that.
[00:04:38] Doug Huber: And I just would read that thing. Cover to cover and became obsessed, you know, probably when I was six or seven and from there, you know, just kind of took off and then I've always been into cars, fixing them up, racing them, you know, all of the above. Yeah. So it's, it's always been a little side project, a little, a little passion project, but yeah, that goes back to the days, you know, when you [00:05:00] used to do the,
[00:05:00] Stacy Havener: I
[00:05:01] Doug Huber: wrapping paper and all those things.
[00:05:04] Doug Huber: I don't have to do them anymore.
[00:05:05] Stacy Havener: That's amazing. Well, the next time you're in Newport, I don't know if you've gone to the odd drain museum and they have the cars and coffee, but they are fantastic. And anyone listening who's into cars come to Newport. We have our own concourse now in the fall.
[00:05:20] Doug Huber: It's awesome.
[00:05:21] Doug Huber: You're absolutely right. It's a fantastic event. Yeah,
[00:05:23] Stacy Havener: it's so awesome. So, I mean, obviously we're going to have to talk more about cars later, but I want to try to connect those two things because I find this really interesting. In fact, some of the most talented fund managers I know were engineers by training who came into the investment space.
[00:05:42] Stacy Havener: So how has that side of you kind of informed the investment piece?
[00:05:48] Doug Huber: Yeah, I would hesitate to pull too many threads together for myself. I certainly don't want to advertise myself as an engineer by trading. You know, I would say that I think it's the idea of, you know, [00:06:00] solving for variables, right? I mean, that's not too dissimilar to what we do in the investment industry.
[00:06:05] Doug Huber: Right. And so. You know, much like anything in any type of mathematics, or even just simple as working on a car or an engine or something like that, right? You know, you kind of try one thing at a time and see what's broken and fix that move to the next thing, as opposed to just kind of blowing everything out at once and then hoping to kind of put it back together.
[00:06:22] Doug Huber: And so my go to there would be to say that there's probably that idea of multiple variables and kind of testing each one to kind of find your solution.
[00:06:31] Stacy Havener: The testing is really big. And so when you started in. The space, did you start in the investment space or was it circuitous how you got to the seat you're in now,
[00:06:43] Doug Huber: you know, I think there was some serendipity to it all.
[00:06:46] Doug Huber: You know, when I got out of school because I took the year off, I ended up getting out right in the teeth of the GFC, you know, the way the world was blowing up any hopes to get into a banking program or something like that. We're pretty much [00:07:00] dashed instantly. And so, You know, it was kind of a mad dash scramble to find a job.
[00:07:04] Doug Huber: I was lucky enough to be able to interview at a firm in Boston at the time was called Federal Street Advisors. It's now Pathstone and was lucky enough to get a job as a junior analyst analyzing hedge funds and private equity for them. And, you know, that was a great, great shop with some really, really great people that gave you enough rope and had a while.
[00:07:26] Doug Huber: It was a steep learning curve. They gave you the ability to climb it and the responsibility along the way. And so it was kind of through luck that. I just ended up with the job. I think my old boss, I had laughingly asked him one time. I said, you know, why did you hire me? And he said, you were the only one who didn't lie to me.
[00:07:41] Doug Huber: And I said, well, he asked me a question. I was interviewing to be a hedge fund analyst. He said, well, what do you know about hedge funds? I was like, nothing like that. They don't teach you that in college. And so it was starting from zero for sure, but it was a super interesting time. I mean, Back at that point, you know, hedge funds were all the rage [00:08:00] and there was a lot to do and a lot to learn, but it was a great space to kind of cut your teeth because you saw a lot of different investment philosophies.
[00:08:07] Doug Huber: Yeah, quickly and in a lot of kind of more complex, uh, solution sets.
[00:08:13] Stacy Havener: What a fantastic firm. I mean, I loved federal street, loved the team. I mean, serendipity, like what a great place to land and space to land in. So now kind of take us through, cause you were there for a while, you joined another group and you've since had a merger.
[00:08:32] Stacy Havener: You're kind of like. You know, catch us up to speed as to what you're doing now.
[00:08:36] Doug Huber: Yeah, totally. So at some point, probably in 2014, again, kind of out of left field, a friend of mine at a cap intro desk said, Hey, there's another shop in Boston looking for somebody to kind of come over and run their entire diligence team.
[00:08:48] Doug Huber: And so I thought that was interesting. It was a firm by the name of North American management. They were a bit smaller. I've been around since 1928, uh, started as a single family office, but there was really kind of an entrepreneurial spirit [00:09:00] to it. Yeah. It was more of, you know, it was a broader kind of opportunity set to analyze.
[00:09:04] Doug Huber: And so, you know, kind of jumped on that back in 2014, and it was a great experience. I think what federal street did really well was they had a very institutionalized process to investment due diligence and kind of my pitch to North American was listen, why can't we bring. An institutional due diligence process to the kind of RIA multifamily office market and went there, built out that team and process.
[00:09:28] Doug Huber: You know, we had a great run all the way through 2021. and in April of 21, we decided to sell the firm to Wealth Enhancement Group. Wealth Enhancement Group is a large, uh, national aggregator of RIAs around the country. Today, I think we have roughly 83 billion in AUM, something like 150 advisor teams, and, you know, shortly after joining them.
[00:09:51] Doug Huber: We got tapped to run their manager due diligence process and, you know, they like others out there, you know, we're in need of [00:10:00] kind of a more process enhancements. And we came with a kind of good system. They took that into account, brought us in and we really have hit the ground running since then. And then my roles evolved over the last couple of years to really lead the investment strategy team, which is comprised of our due diligence team, our internal equity team and our internal fixed income team.
[00:10:18] Stacy Havener: Perfect. And I'm like, I'm just picturing the sort of systems thinking and the, you know, the engines all firing here, um, in such a different way. So I just love the backstory to give us that context. So before we kind of dive into sort of how you think about due diligences or what's important to an allocator, I'm curious because rollups are kind of the rage, right?
[00:10:42] Stacy Havener: Everybody's trying to roll up. The RIA market, I think it's happening here. It's happening, you know, overseas. That's just, this is the thing. And so given your seat, like how challenging that must be to have all these advisors come in, you said what? [00:11:00] 83 is that, was that
[00:11:02] Doug Huber: probably a hundred and three billion, 150 teams now.
[00:11:05] Doug Huber: So you've
[00:11:07] Stacy Havener: got. Mountain of assets that you're trying to allocate. You've got. A ton of advisors who, you know, presumably come into the, the mix with different philosophies, different ways of doing things. Are you centralizing that research under one? Like here's how we do things at Wealth Enhancement, or is it more of the idea of, Hey, like whatever you were doing, that's cool.
[00:11:31] Stacy Havener: Your clients are used to it. You do you, and we're here for support. Like how do you think that through?
[00:11:36] Doug Huber: Yeah, absolutely. I'd say, you know, taking a step back, if you look at this kind of aggregator situation that we have in front of us today, there's kind of a mosaic of how these groups approach approach it.
[00:11:47] Doug Huber: You know, on 1 end, you probably have what I'd consider more of a financial backer where they will provide the seller with some dollars, but are pretty hands off after the transaction. You know, maybe they buy a majority stake. Maybe they [00:12:00] buy the whole business, but. You know, it's more of a dollar transaction as opposed to necessarily value additive.
[00:12:06] Doug Huber: And there's reasons that a seller might want to go with that. You know, that's a totally understandable thing on the other end of that spectrum. You have those that kind of force you into their model and get that situation too. And they have less issues to deal with as it results, you know, as it relates to integration, right.
[00:12:21] Doug Huber: You know, you're kind of, you're bought, you're, you're put into their box and there's reasons a seller would be attracted to that. Our model has always been kind of in the middle, you know, more of a hybrid approach where. Our pitch to our prospective Rias is simply we want you to use as few or as many of the centralized services as you see fit To help you be the best advisor for your current clients and to help you and your team grow your business And so what that actually comes out to is is some combination of centrally managed solutions that a lot of advisors will utilize, but we also give them the flexibility to utilize their own investment models and continue to manage them [00:13:00] in a way they see fit.
[00:13:01] Doug Huber: And we see that adoption. It varies, right? Some advisors really love. You know, they've always worn an investment hat. They love investments. They're very talented at it and rightfully So they want to continue to do their own thing and that's fine by us in other instances Advisors say listen, we just want this off our plate.
[00:13:18] Doug Huber: We're really good people You know, we want to just deal with our clients every day. We want to service our clients. That's our skill set We want to utilize your central team and the solutions you guys bring to bear You have far more resources and experience than we do, you know We're going to go with a centralized solution and that's fine with us as well.
[00:13:33] Doug Huber: So we try to meet them You You know where they want to be met.
[00:13:37] Stacy Havener: Got it. Okay, very creative very differentiated I love that
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[00:14:45] Stacy Havener: So now as kind of the head of investment strategy and this like CIO, very top, top level work, how are you, I mean, this is a very large group, so I'm guessing you're [00:15:00] tapping into all of your knowledge here. The alt side, the traditional side, sounds like you have even some of your own direct investing expertise as well.
[00:15:10] Stacy Havener: Talk a little bit about how you think about asset allocation when you have sort of boutiques almost underneath this larger. Aum number.
[00:15:23] Doug Huber: Yeah, sure. So, I mean, the what we call our centrally managed solutions are comprised of daily liquid models that are executed by mutual funds and ETFs. We have internally managed separately managed accounts for the teams I referenced that are from inside.
[00:15:38] Doug Huber: We offer externally managed separately managed accounts and equity and fixed income as well. Um, we have an entire alternatives platform that we've launched in the last year. We also have options overlays. We do a lot with tax advantage investing. So that kind of comprises the arrows in our quiver as it relates to kind of our investment platform, you know, to get to your specific question around [00:16:00] asset allocation.
[00:16:01] Doug Huber: Most of that is done at that kind of daily liquid portfolio level, right? That's where we can have some say and you know how we are effectuating our views. I would say we are we are strategic by nature. We are not super tactical on how we view the world. We do believe that it's. It's time in the market, but we're not obtuse to the fact that, you know, there's often risks and potential opportunities that bubble up from things that are occurring in the economy.
[00:16:25] Doug Huber: And if we can shade 1 way or another, you know, we're willing to do that. So we have a process in place. We have a new CIO, Michael Fredericks, who came from BlackRock, who's excellent and has been really refining our process in that regard. But you have a process where we go through the macro. We look at.
[00:16:42] Doug Huber: Equities and relative valuation within equities. We looked at fixed income and relative valid and fixed income. And then we come to some kind of view quarterly that says, hey, you know, is there any glaring risk or glaring reward? We should be trying to take advantage of here. Or do we want to kind of stay close to our home?
[00:16:58] Doug Huber: Home base in terms of our asset [00:17:00] allocation at the high level, right? The advisor and or the client or the one that's really making the asset allocation decision, right? It's, it's a risk tolerance thing. Are they 60, 40 or 80, 20 or 20, 80, you know, that's really going to be done at the client level within that, you know, we'll make.
[00:17:15] Doug Huber: Mark, you know, changes at the margin here or there to say, Hey, you know, in fixed income, we really like securitized credit relative to on the run IG right now. Okay. So we're going to be a little heavier securitized. Visa v corporate credit, right that that's something you could see but it's not like we're going to wholesale Move an entire fixed income portfolio to high yield because spreads blew out or something,
[00:17:37] Stacy Havener: right?
[00:17:37] Doug Huber: There are changes on the margin to try to pick up a little return or reduce a little risk
[00:17:42] Stacy Havener: Okay, super helpful. And what a great hire for you guys with a cio of that caliber That's awesome. And of course blackrock being blackrock and me being somebody who stands solidly for boutiques I've got to ask this question And I know from your roots [00:18:00] at Federal Street that one of the things that Federal Street prided yourselves on is really finding and supporting, you know, kind of founder led boutique specialists.
[00:18:11] Stacy Havener: And there's certainly a place for both generalists like the Black Rocks and the, and the specialists such as the boutiques. So how do you think about that now at a firm like Wealth Enhancement Group?
[00:18:24] Doug Huber: You know, we try to take our step back from it. All right. Anytime we're looking to do a search, we start our funnel as wide as humanly possible.
[00:18:32] Doug Huber: You know, we really we don't care. We'll look from everything from pure kind of passive cap weighted beta all the way through active fundamental management. Uh, and everything in between, you know, quantitative strategies, factor oriented strategies, all of the above. Right. And then we whittle it down to figure out what is the best expression we want to make.
[00:18:51] Doug Huber: And that's what kind of what we call our, our idea for a particular search that we have on, you know, we don't go into it with some thought of we [00:19:00] want big, we want small, you know, I would tend to say that if you looked across our portfolios, you'd see a. A relatively balanced curve of kind of all of the above.
[00:19:10] Doug Huber: Right. I mean, naturally when it comes to more of the cap weighted kind of ETFs, you're going to lean towards the larger, cheaper solutions with our active strategies. There's a mix of some folks that kind of. Larger firms, although ones that started as usual, you know, boutiques that have kind of just grown with success to firms that are kind of putting themselves on the map today and maybe do around three, four or AUM.
[00:19:35] Doug Huber: Um, but we think they do something particularly well that, you know, they're playing in a seam in the market that we don't think necessarily you need the scale or the size might be a detriment to that particular strategy. So it's, it's a mixed bag.
[00:19:49] Stacy Havener: Great point on the size. I think that does play into it.
[00:19:51] Stacy Havener: Just sort of the space and the natural capacity and inefficiencies that a space has lends itself to active and [00:20:00] specialists, obviously, more so than, than others. So then I'm going to have you put on sort of two hats, your wealth enhancement group hat, as well as sort of kind of the roots of that federal street hat, because as somebody who's been in due diligence for so long, I want to talk about A lot of things, but one of them is qualitative versus quantitative, because I think there is sometimes a big disconnect between what managers, what fund managers think allocators value and what allocators actually value in the due diligence process nutshell is.
[00:20:40] Stacy Havener: Managers think it's all about the quant and allocators believe, yes, the quant is important, but qualitative matters too. And specifically, one of the things that's come up a ton on this podcast is culture. And so I'd love for you to kind of talk with us about how [00:21:00] you, as a due diligence expert, think about quantitative and qualitative together.
[00:21:05] Stacy Havener: And then let's take it to culture because I'm super fascinated by that.
[00:21:08] Doug Huber: Yeah, absolutely. And you're, you're spot on and kind of what you said there. I think I think about it in a high level, right? Our job is twofold and I'll use kind of an analogy here. I think we have to go out and find the best athletes,
[00:21:22] Stacy Havener: but
[00:21:22] Doug Huber: we also have to build the best team in sometimes.
[00:21:27] Doug Huber: The second best athlete is a better fit for your team than the superstar, right? And so a lot of times, I actually find the delineation between quantitative and qualitative can kind of fall across those 2 lines a little bit right? When we are analyzing managers, obviously, like everybody else, right?
[00:21:43] Doug Huber: You're relying on past performance to analyze a track record, right? You're saying, you know, right. What have you been able to deliver in the past? Is it been, you know, better than most and, you know, why do we want to go take a look at it? Or, or maybe it's been, maybe it's had troubles and you think there's opportunity, but you're using a past track record [00:22:00] to kind of analyze why you want to take a look.
[00:22:02] Doug Huber: But a lot of the analysis as it relates to single managers, this is really figuring out that qualitative piece, right? Who are the people that built that track record? Are they still there? Are they people you want to partner with? Do they have. The support system in terms of a firm and a business around them, where they can focus on the investment side and not have to worry about keeping a roof over their head and paying employees every day.
[00:22:24] Doug Huber: Right? Are the key decision makers? The rainmakers really being compensated for. The track record they developed and hopefully the track record, they're going to continue to deliver for our clients. Right? We think a lot about and spend probably the most time on the process. Right? Is it something that is understandable and repeatable?
[00:22:40] Doug Huber: Right? Is it is it a firm that we can with accuracy or a great degree of accuracy say, hey, we believe that we can set the right goal post for this strategy and develop the right expectations. Going forward and understand that. Listen, nobody's perfect. We're always going to have times when things are out of favor or mistakes are made, but our job is to do all that [00:23:00] work up front to make sure that when that happens, you know, we have a good conversation, a thoughtful conversation that's targeted.
[00:23:06] Doug Huber: And hopefully if we walk away with that, realizing, listen, we didn't, we didn't kind of break through any thresholds here. It's well within our bounds of expectation instead of running for the doors, because we don't understand why things went wrong, might be a good time to say, Hey, like, should we be adding capital here?
[00:23:21] Doug Huber: Right. And so a lot of that qualitative work goes into the manager analysis. And to your point, culture is a big one. You know, I think we've found. I'm a huge proponent of pattern recognition. And I look back against some of our, my bigger wins in terms of allocations versus, you know, once we whiffed on, you know, I think there is a commonality amongst some of the bigger winners that there is a culture at a firm where kind of everybody's marching towards the same goal, there's a real belief.
[00:23:51] Doug Huber: And what that firm brings is a belief in the process and the philosophy that a founder or founders have put in place. And that the employees, the PMs, and the [00:24:00] analysts that are working for that are kind of all aligned and driving forward on that. In other instances, you know, we've had ones where culture maybe hasn't been as great and then looking back on it, you know, that's where kind of cracks in the seams can show themselves.
[00:24:14] Doug Huber: That's not to say it's the number one thing that we check off, but it's definitely up there and things we pay attention to because We have noticed a corollary between quality of culture at a firm and kind of the ultimate outcomes we can bring to clients.
[00:24:29] Stacy Havener: So much goodness in that Doug. Gosh, I love everything you talked about there.
[00:24:34] Stacy Havener: Okay, so then here's the million, billion, 83 billion question. How do you get to the culture piece? Because it's so difficult to unpack. Like, I can't just come up to you and be like, so Doug, tell me about your culture. And anything that comes out of your mouth after that, it's like, how, like, how do you explain that?
[00:24:56] Stacy Havener: Do you have to see it kind of playing out in real life? Like, talk [00:25:00] about that.
[00:25:00] Doug Huber: Yeah, I think you're, you're spot on. There's the only way you're going to see it is, is in dialogue, right? You can't just sit and read a document, you know, you, you have to be hands on and something that I learned early on in my career.
[00:25:13] Doug Huber: I've been a big proponent of it for analysts who've worked for me is, Is get out there and do manager meetings. Right? You know, I think I looked back and I think I average 450 manager meetings a year. You know, it's, it's something insane, right? But it gets to be a lot. I'm not saying they're all unique, but you know what that does is it gives you some pattern recognition to say, Hey, you know, there's certain things you pick up after talking to people long enough where you're, you're seeing the good, you know, the mediocre and the bad.
[00:25:40] Doug Huber: And. You're kind of realizing like, Hey, these are things that I've seen before that have been successful and let's pull on that a little bit. And then, you know, you get in there and we try to spend a lot of time with a lot of stakeholders at all these firms. Yeah, it's not just the portfolio managers.
[00:25:55] Doug Huber: It's the owners of the firm. If they're separate, it's the analysts and the senior analysts. It's. [00:26:00] You know, the operations and the folks running the business day to day, they're as important, right? They're doing, you know, they're keeping that thing humming, right? And so we try to spend a lot of time really trying to to talk with as many folks as we can internally learn where the pain points are, you know, be tired to talk with a lot of people who might have been there before and then gone someplace else.
[00:26:19] Doug Huber: And, you know, would you like what didn't you like and not in an effort to try to like. Uncover some salacious piece of information where you go, hi, you were lying. Yeah, exactly. But it isn't an effort to make sure that we do understand, right? Somebody's always going to be jaded, right? Everybody. Yeah.
[00:26:37] Doug Huber: Nobody's perfect. Nothing's ever perfect. But, you know, just if we see things that are. That are pervasive, then that might lead us to say, Hey, you know, we're getting a little bad feel here. Let's take a step back. Or maybe we hear a lot of folks that have gone on to do their own thing said, Hey, listen, this was a great place to work.
[00:26:53] Doug Huber: You know, I was ready for my own thing. I still have my money there. You know, those are things you want to hear when you say, All right, you know, [00:27:00] that gives me some confidence that there really is culture there. I mean, yeah. None of this is easy asset managers for allocators, right? It's a tough business.
[00:27:08] Doug Huber: You know, there's a lot that goes on. But I think, you know, when we see those ones that we can come across, we think are a little bit of a hidden gem that have that culture piece to it. It definitely perps our ears up.
[00:27:19] Stacy Havener: Yes, I agree with everything you said. I feel like culture, it sort of has a vibe of like, well, here's our values on this piece of paper here.
[00:27:29] Stacy Havener: You can definitely read those and it's like. That's not going to help me. Like culture is how you act. It guides how you act. And to your point, like you need to see that not just in the investment team, but throughout the whole firm, such a good comment.
[00:27:44] Doug Huber: Yeah. I think, you know, listen, the way we approach any of these things is we view it as a partnership, right?
[00:27:50] Doug Huber: I mean, it's, we're really trying to be fiduciaries for our clients, really deliver the best advice we can for them. And in doing so, you know, We also want to partner with that firm, acknowledging [00:28:00] that we tend to be long term holders. But in exchange, we want, you know, we want a good relationship. We want access.
[00:28:06] Doug Huber: We want transparency. We want somebody that's going to pick up the phone when, you know, things are going bad, or frankly, maybe give us a call ahead of time, you know, and I have a, for instance, just yesterday, we had, you know, a little bit of a mini fire pop itself up with a fund and they had been in touch with us for, you know, Over the weekend saying, Hey, listen, this could be common.
[00:28:24] Doug Huber: This is what we're doing. I rectify it. You know, we think we can recover X, Y, and Z and they have an incredible track record, you know, mistakes happen. You know, some of it was situational. Some of it might've been, Hey, a position got too big, but like, it's not the end of the world. You know, it was a de minimis effect on the fun, but we were happy that they were ahead of it.
[00:28:44] Doug Huber: They were open and honest with us and Hey, this is what's coming. We're going to take it head on. We acknowledge our mistake. This is what we're changing, blah, blah, blah. But. Those are, that's the kind of relationship we want as opposed to, you know, you see something it's not up to, you know, not to expectation.
[00:28:58] Doug Huber: You make a phone call and you're [00:29:00] nobody's answer and nobody's answer. Those aren't the partners you want. I think that goes back to that idea of culture, right? I mean, if it's ingrained that, you know, they're there to service a client at the, the ultimate end client is at the top of the totem pole. And that kind of the founder PM is really at the bottom, maybe their employees next, and then the client, if it's that kind of thought process that I think.
[00:29:21] Doug Huber: are really the firms we tend to gravitate towards.
[00:29:23] Stacy Havener: It's a great example of why communication is important, even when things are going wrong, maybe even more important when things are going wrong, more important. And you have a lot of fun managers who are like, you know what? Times are tough. I'm going to go dark.
[00:29:41] Stacy Havener: I'm going to go dark. I'm going to hide. I'm not going to talk about anything that's happening. And then when we've got unicorns and rainbows again, like I'm going to come back out and be like, here I am. And I don't know how it is as an allocator, but I would imagine having been in not maybe 450 meetings a [00:30:00] year, but a lot that, you know, It's those tough times that really do say perhaps more about you, your team, your process, than the good times.
[00:30:13] Stacy Havener: How do you feel about that one?
[00:30:15] Doug Huber: Yeah, I think that's a very fair statement.
[00:30:17] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:30:18] Doug Huber: You know, again, nothing is holistic and it's not just that, but it's certainly a piece of that puzzle that I do think. You know how you react in the more difficult times is definitely Important and I think we put a lot of weight into that and you know, I would say that fortunately knock on wood You know, we've had a lot of really great experiences and for the most part that's been the case and I think you know A lot of that is because you do that work up front to determine, you know, what kind of partner are we going to go with?
[00:30:46] Doug Huber: And I've said it in other ways, but in a more polite way, I'll say it here is, is that, you know, life's too short to kind of invest with somebody you don't think is going to be the best partner. [00:31:00] And, you know, frankly, you know, the second or third or fourth best potential option, if they're a great partner, supersedes anything in terms of past returns or what you think future returns are going to be, right?
[00:31:11] Doug Huber: I mean, I'm willing to give up. Basis points or percentage points for a good partner that I know we can be there for the long term as opposed to just trying to play a hot hand with somebody that we think, you know, may or may not be, you know, the right the right partner for us.
[00:31:26] Stacy Havener: It's so good and I assume to that actually seeing their investment process, not just how they are as a partner.
[00:31:32] Stacy Havener: Although I think that's. Obviously critical, but their investment process in the tough times is probably also again. I don't want to say more telling, but I'm sure it's. More important than perhaps fund managers think it is for you as an allocator to really see how does your process work when it's not working or when the asset class has [00:32:00] headwinds.
[00:32:00] Doug Huber: Yeah, I think those are the times you tend to see, you know, do people deviate, right? You know, it's easy to stay in your kind of. Written process that you put out to everybody. This is how we do it. This is how the sausage made. It's kind of easy to stay in that when things are working, right? It's when things are tough.
[00:32:17] Doug Huber: Do you have the fortitude to say, listen, my process is right? You know, it works. Yes, it's tough right now. We've got to stay in that. You know, sometimes you will see when things get tough. Things start to deviate a little bit, right? Because it hurts and it's behavioral and it's, it's understanding, you know, you will see deviation sometimes in those stressed moments where, you know, it just, it's too hard to hang on.
[00:32:39] Doug Huber: And all of a sudden changes start getting made and we pay a lot of attention to that.
[00:32:44] Stacy Havener: Stay with that for a second. You pay a lot of attention to it, meaning you would prefer that the manager stick to their process than try to mute the pain.
[00:32:56] Doug Huber: Yeah, that's that's probably the trickiest question, right? Yeah, we are not [00:33:00] so myopic to think that something should be set in stone and then stay there forever, right?
[00:33:05] Doug Huber: You know, things need to be iterative changes need to occur. So I don't want my comment to come across as is that what I was what I was thinking, but we want to make sure that. If changes to the process are being made, that they are being made on the margin, that they are improvements of learnings as opposed to reactionary.
[00:33:23] Stacy Havener: Yeah. You
[00:33:24] Doug Huber: know, it's one thing if you say, Hey, we learned X, Y, and Z. And, you know, if we think we can do it a little better, if we, if we just pivot this way or that way, it's another thing to say, we don't know what the hell's going on, let's try this. You know, that's, that's a little bit of the one that you start to get concerned about where it feels more of a reaction as opposed to kind of an educated improvement.
[00:33:43] Stacy Havener: Yeah. Or the one that was interesting. I mean, the port value managers, my goodness, like what, what a decade of just getting kicked in the teeth.
[00:33:56] Stacy Havener: And so during that time you saw really talented value managers [00:34:00] close shop like heartbreak. Right. And then you also saw some classic value managers sort of say, well, I'm redefining value. There's old value. There's new value. And it's like, okay, so how do you think about that? Because there's a side of me, a skeptical side, that's like, sure, because, you know, innovation and all of the things, bangs are hot, you're trying to figure out a way to justify that.
[00:34:26] Stacy Havener: Is that really value? How did you guys think about that? Approach. Yeah,
[00:34:31] Doug Huber: that's
[00:34:32] Stacy Havener: tough to be a value investor.
[00:34:35] Doug Huber: Yeah, it's still is to some degree. We've actually done an exorbitant amount of work on kind of the, the value premium, right? And all the way from its origins and kind of the more academic sense, you know, traditionally was just kind of what you'd call high minus love or, you know, buy cheap, right?
[00:34:54] Doug Huber: And it usually was on a price to earnings ratio, right? And I do believe that [00:35:00] value has Changed in how we can measure it. I think there's better ways to, to measure value today. And I think you've seen some that are more willing to accept that, right? Balance sheets and income statements look different than they did.
[00:35:14] Doug Huber: Businesses in general are different than they are, right? There's, there's a lot more in the, in the accounting side of things now than there used to be. How do you treat certain aspects of the business today? Right. And how are things accounted for? And I think it's not to say that there is a right or wrong, but what is interesting is if you do take maybe a more modern, uh, Approach to value what ends up happening is is that value doesn't necessarily regress to the value that you have So as you think about like,
[00:35:44] Stacy Havener: yeah,
[00:35:45] Doug Huber: do I have a value growth like all of a sudden you're like, yes I agree with this new form of value or maybe you do or don't but you know From a portfolio standpoint, you then have to kind of shift your mindset to say.
[00:35:55] Doug Huber: All right well If quote unquote value runs or are we still exposed [00:36:00] to that or not? And so it's a hot button discussion we have internally. We've done a lot of work on it I think we are in this camp that we colloquially call it value 3. 0 internally You know, we think there's you know, you do have to account for profitability today.
[00:36:18] Doug Huber: I think you know you have to uh Account for quality of a business more than you might have in the past You I still think you can look at certain valuation metrics, but maybe it's incorporating maybe enterprise value and cash flows as opposed to just price and earnings. And so, again, that's not to say we are right or wrong.
[00:36:39] Doug Huber: It's kind of a working assumption we're running with at the moment, but. It definitely is you're absolutely right. It's been hard to say and what it you know, the evolution of what somebody calls value I mean, you could have a growth manager tell you they're a value manager, right? They think they're buying future growth cheap, right?
[00:36:54] Doug Huber: I mean technically everything's value of just how what lens you look or
[00:36:59] Stacy Havener: [00:37:00] So true. And thanks for sharing that with us, because I think it's challenging. It's challenging for both value and growth managers, really, because I think a lot of the classic definitions are changing. What rings so true in my head as you were talking is, is the numbers are not the whole story, even in that example, because you had, you know, classic value metrics that maybe that's not the whole story.
[00:37:22] Stacy Havener: And it never really is. There's more to it. So I loved that. I want to go back to your 450 meeting. You probably don't, but I do. All right. We need some advice. Like when you think back on all the meetings that you've had and the meetings that you continue to have. You know, if we put ourselves in the fund manager's shoes and they're sitting here like, Doug, tell me your best lessons, like how do I approach a meeting in a way that's useful to an allocator?
[00:37:54] Stacy Havener: What's your sort of list of like what doesn't work as well and maybe what does?
[00:37:59] Doug Huber: That's a great [00:38:00] question. You know, as I thought about that, I think I was thinking through it in a different light. I would tell you that I think when it comes to manager meetings, I don't want this to feel like I'm brushing your question aside, but I don't think there is a perfect formula, right?
[00:38:13] Doug Huber: I think, I think each allocator is going to be looking for different things or trying to pull at different strings, trying to understand certain things. I think at the end of the day, we're all trying to understand the people in the process, right? You know, we're, we're trying to determine. Do we believe we can set expectations from, you know, what was delivered historically that it will be delivered in the future and what does a particular product bring to our overall kind of asset allocation and how well does it play in the pool with the others?
[00:38:41] Doug Huber: You know, I think everybody's going to have different versions of how they ask those questions or go about it. You know, to us, I always find that a more engaging conversation goes a long way. You know, some people can tend to be more abrupt in their answers. Kind of, I don't want to call them one word answers, but very specific.
[00:38:59] Doug Huber: You know, you [00:39:00] ask a question, you get the kind of boom, boom, and then it's kind of hard stop and it doesn't give you much to pull up the next thread.
[00:39:06] Stacy Havener: I
[00:39:08] Doug Huber: typically find just as a personal preference, the more conversational
[00:39:11] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I
[00:39:12] Doug Huber: mean, it can be the better because oftentimes. I'll be going down one path, but they'll say something and I'll say, Hey, that's great.
[00:39:17] Doug Huber: Let's steer it down there for a little bit. And we engage with them so much that, you know, having that kind of rapport is important. You know, it gets a little tedious if you just. Feels like you're kind of pulling blood from a stone, you know, so I think, you know, kind of that, that open dialogue, the transparency, you know, those are the keys for us.
[00:39:36] Doug Huber: But, you know, everybody approaches it differently. So I want to kind of walk through the A to Z. Some want to jump around. Some want to use examples. You know, all those are fine by us. You know, we don't necessarily have a preference. We know if we've received all the information we need to get comfortable.
[00:39:51] Doug Huber: We don't we go back with more questions.
[00:39:53] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I think that's great advice. I mean, it's not a prescription, but in some ways it's [00:40:00] kind of a vibe, which is to say that you go into the meeting more open. To letting the conversation happen naturally. And I think that's very challenging for fund managers. It kind of brings me to another topic, but I'm sure you've seen this too, which is not every fund manager.
[00:40:19] Stacy Havener: Not every talented fund manager is really comfortable. In these meetings and so sometimes like it comes across like they're, I won't cuss, but like they're a jerk or they're, you know, what's up with this guy? Like, or the one word answers. And sometimes it's not, it's that this is hard for them. And I think knowing fund managers, as do you, like, You have to sort of take some of this with a grain of salt and realize that meetings are not everyone's, you know, marketing and sales are not everyone's jam.
[00:40:54] Doug Huber: Yeah, and you're absolutely right. I think, you know, we work hard to not. Ding [00:41:00] anybody that isn't the most, you know, outgoing in meetings because everybody has a different personality. It's not fair to assume that everybody can walk in and, you know, hold a room and that's totally fine, too. But just anecdotally, you know, the more you can kind of have a conversation, the better.
[00:41:17] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think it makes the meetings more fun. 450 meetings where someone's talking at you and giving you one word answers and pointing to charts and stats is like, Poke your eyes out, you know, I wouldn't be
[00:41:30] Doug Huber: doing that many anymore.
[00:41:33] Stacy Havener: So let's talk a little bit about the authenticity piece and sort of why just in general, it's challenging for people in our industry to do this.
[00:41:46] Stacy Havener: And I think it's true on both sides. I think it's true for allocators. I think allocators go into meetings with clients kind of thinking like the client, you know, this is what matters to a client. I think fund managers go into a meeting with an allocator thinking this [00:42:00] is what men, you know, what they want to hear basically.
[00:42:04] Stacy Havener: And how do you Like, how do you get somebody out of that? Do you find it's just asking questions? Like, that's my, that's my trick. Like, I'm like, I'm just gonna ask questions and get talking. And to your point, let the conversation flow. But how do you try to get managers to maybe stop playing the part of fund manager all the time?
[00:42:25] Doug Huber: Yeah, I mean, the, you know, I am by no means a psychologist, so I don't have quite the, uh, tool set that maybe some others would. You know, I, I think it comes down to kind of how can you disarm the situation, right? You know, how do you get somebody to kind of pull the walls down a little bit? You know, I know there's, there's a lot of research on how you do that.
[00:42:46] Doug Huber: I'm not smart enough to subscribe to any of it, but you know, I, I think everybody has their own way, but the more you can kind of disarm a conversation and kind of make it so that it doesn't feel that there's some underlying thing you're [00:43:00] hiding, you're trying to get them to admit to that they don't want it.
[00:43:02] Doug Huber: You know, it's to us, that's not, you know, we're not trying to purely point out that gotcha moment, right. That's what we're not trying to do. You know, sometimes it goes that way, unfortunately, but for the most part, you know, we're really just trying to understand, right. And so, you know, we don't go in with, Too hard nosed into any of these things.
[00:43:21] Doug Huber: We try to keep it light, you know, usually there's good dialogue, you know, some good opening remarks around just how are you, what's new in life, you know, all those things, you know, I think if you can just bring the walls down a little bit, you know, on both sides, you're right. You know, I think we all have it.
[00:43:37] Doug Huber: It's human nature. I think the other thing too, is either in the, the asset management side or the allocator side, right? I think we're in an industry that is. Inadvertently or maybe on purpose become very compartmentalized. Like think about how we all look at things, right. We've already talked about value and growth, right.
[00:43:54] Doug Huber: Or large cap, small cap, or, you know, we try to bucket all these things. And [00:44:00] I found over my career that that compartmentalization. Maybe isn't the best approach when thinking at a higher level, right? You know, let's go find great investments and then we can figure out how we, how we build a narrative around those and how they fit into a portfolio, as opposed to being so myopic to say, you know, you have to fit in this box and, you know, whether it's because we're all benchmark, you know, we're all tied to some benchmark or whatever it is, right.
[00:44:27] Doug Huber: It's always about this kind of. You've got to be in these lanes and we try to break that down a little bit, you know, not, not to say that we don't, right? We have to in some regards, but we try to kind of bring the walls of those boxes down a little bit. Think a little bit more outside of them and ultimately say, Hey, let's try to get to, let's think of it more of an objective.
[00:44:45] Doug Huber: You know, what, what are we trying to do for our clients? And then we can build a narrative around great investments.
[00:44:51] Stacy Havener: I love that. I'm like, want to throw my mic. It's like not even a mic drop. It's like a mic throwing moment. So, you know, that's like this [00:45:00] whole idea of we are ands, not ors. And I really think that's to be true.
[00:45:03] Stacy Havener: And this whole conversation actually has been a journey of ands. Not ORs, and I've loved it. So thank you for your candor. Can I end with a couple questions, not psychology questions. They're not behavioral, but they're a little bit maybe disarming, but we'll maybe step into 'em little bit more to get to know Doug.
[00:45:25] Stacy Havener: Okay. Yeah. First one. Okay, here we go. What book inspires you?
[00:45:31] Doug Huber: Ooh, that's a good one. It's been a while since I read it, but I always, I loved, uh, Ken Langone's I Love Capitalism. I just think his story is pretty impressive and, um, you know, kind of a come from nothing story and just how he's approached business over the years.
[00:45:46] Doug Huber: I liked that read. Pretty easy to get through, but I thought it was a good book.
[00:45:50] Stacy Havener: I love, well, you know, I'm here for the underdog stories, so I'm going to read that one. That is great. I obviously know who he is, but I have not heard of that book. Thank you for that. Okay. [00:46:00] Switching gears from book to place.
[00:46:03] Stacy Havener: What place inspires you? What's your happy place?
[00:46:07] Doug Huber: Any golf course. That's a golf course. I'm happy on.
[00:46:11] Stacy Havener: I love that.
[00:46:11] Doug Huber: Yeah.
[00:46:12] Stacy Havener: But why? But is it because of like. Yeah. Is it relaxing or is it the competitive side? Like what about it?
[00:46:19] Doug Huber: It's the combination to be honest with you. It's a great insight you had there.
[00:46:23] Doug Huber: Yeah, it's both right? I mean, i'm I'm a huge golfer. I love golf. I love the Self deprecating nature of golf. You can't you can't blame anybody else Like it's a stationary golf ball, you know, you can practice for years and years and years and still get you I do love the competitiveness of the sport, you know, and you can get into some competitive play.
[00:46:43] Doug Huber: It's, it's quite, you know, it's, it's interesting, but you're right. It's beautiful. And, you know, I try to kind of remind myself that when, when you're getting frustrated, it's like, there can be a lot worse places to be than, than having a nice walk on a nice day on a golf course. And, you know, [00:47:00] just take a look around.
[00:47:01] Doug Huber: It's pretty good. So
[00:47:02] Stacy Havener: again, it's an, and not an R that's perfect.
[00:47:05] Doug Huber: Yeah.
[00:47:05] Stacy Havener: Okay. We're switching gears to music.
[00:47:08] Doug Huber: Okay. Okay.
[00:47:09] Stacy Havener: Okay. Okay. So you are taking the stage. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's a big conference of RIAs who are contemplating joining wealth and history. Okay. They want to know what's up, Doug.
[00:47:24] Stacy Havener: So you're taking the stage. We got to live in this crew up. They're kind of. They're a little bit snoozed. What song are we playing for you?
[00:47:34] Doug Huber: What's your walkout? I walk out.
[00:47:35] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:47:36] Doug Huber: Jeez Louise. That's a good one. You know, non family friendly, probably a little Wayne right above it. Uh, more family friendly, maybe like.
[00:47:46] Doug Huber: ACDC, Thunderstruck, or Billy Squire, Lonely is the Night, something like that.
[00:47:52] Stacy Havener: I love that you went rap and like, like, rock.
[00:47:55] Doug Huber: Yeah.
[00:47:56] Stacy Havener: That's perfect. So good. Any and
[00:47:58] Doug Huber: all music's good by me. [00:48:00]
[00:48:00] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I'm the same. I love it. Those are great ones. Okay, this is going to be an interesting one. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
[00:48:10] Doug Huber: Oh, I've always loved to love cooking. So I'd love to chef, right? That sounds I don't think I could handle the hours or how intense that job. Yeah, I'll say chef or firefighter.
[00:48:25] Stacy Havener: Okay, two very different careers that involve flames. By the way,
[00:48:32] Doug Huber: maybe I'm a closet pyromaniac. I don't know. That is so good. Yeah,
[00:48:38] Stacy Havener: no, but like, so interesting.
[00:48:41] Stacy Havener: And also I love the creativity of the chef one. And obviously the bravery of the firefighter. Super inspiring. Okay. Flip side. I have no idea what you're going to say to this. What profession would you not like to do?
[00:48:56] Doug Huber: There's too many to list of ones I could never do. Um, but what [00:49:00] would you not want to do?
[00:49:01] Doug Huber: You know, I would say that any profession that your risk reward is on its head, right? You know, and what I mean by that is that I would never want to be the president of the United States, right? You know, you're automatically, I think, even the most popular president of in the history of the United States, you know, like, maybe their approval rating was just north of 50%.
[00:49:22] Doug Huber: It's almost like you're setting yourself up that half of the population hates you, right? Like, that to me, like, those dynamics didn't. Just brutal. And it's, you know, something like that is what I'm referencing of like, just anything where that kind of dynamic is at play. I don't think I want to do anything like that.
[00:49:39] Stacy Havener: We're too ingrained in risk reward, aren't we? That's just not, it's not there for that one. Exactly.
[00:49:45] Doug Huber: I'm with
[00:49:46] Stacy Havener: you. Okay. Last question. What do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the industry?
[00:49:54] Doug Huber: Thank God he's gone. No, um, you know, that's a great question. [00:50:00] I'm not that introspective, but listen, you know, we always, you know, I, I certainly want to be thought of as thoughtful, thorough, fair.
[00:50:09] Doug Huber: I think those are things we strive for. I strive for, you know, as we do our jobs. You know, and I'd love to, I've been so fortunate to have some really good mentors along the way that, you know, caught my blessings that we were able to work together and, you know, they, they gave me insights and things to help me get to where I am today.
[00:50:27] Doug Huber: I'd love to have somebody say that same thing about me at some point.
[00:50:31] Stacy Havener: I love that.
[00:50:31] Doug Huber: Yeah,
[00:50:32] Stacy Havener: that's a good one. And I hope they also say, let's meet up for golf.
[00:50:36] Doug Huber: Yeah. Cause I mean, you'll be retired travel.
[00:50:42] Stacy Havener: Doug, you've been a joy. Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate you. Your insights are always welcome and hopefully we'll see you soon.
[00:50:50] Stacy Havener: Not on the golf course. I'm not meeting you there. I'll meet you for a drink after.
[00:50:54] Doug Huber: Sounds good. Well, Stacy, thanks so much for having me. This was a blast.
[00:50:57] Stacy Havener: Okay. Thanks Doug.
[00:50:58] Doug Huber: Bye bye.
[00:50:59] Stacy Havener: This podcast [00:51:00] is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation or recommendation of any of the funds, services or products or to adopt any investment strategy.
[00:51:13] Stacy Havener: Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Havener or Havener Capital Partners.
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