Episode 48:$4B RIA Platform Chief Behavioral Officer Brendan Frazier of RFG Advisory on the Power of People First | How Listening More Will Get You More Meetings
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Most boutique firms strive to raise more funds and stay ahead of market trends. But they lack one key ingredient that the bigs have in their back pockets– behavioral finance expertise.
Today, Brendan Frazier, Chief Behavioral Officer of the $4B RIA platform RFG Advisory, is here to level the playing field.
Listen in as he and Stacy discuss:
The unique challenges boutiques face when raising capital
How to tap into the human psyche to raise more funds and land more meetings
A behavioral finance deep dive: why certain sales tactics hit different for small shops
How your fear of hearing ‘no’ could be sabotaging your firm’s growth
About Brendan Frazier:
Brendan Frazier is the Chief Behavioral Officer at RFG and the host of The Human Side of Money podcast, where he helps advisors and their clients master the emotional and psychological side of money. After starting his career as a consultant to financial advisors around the country, he started his own advisory business and was twice named one of Investopedia's Top 100 Financial Advisors in the U.S. Most recently, he built a global training platform for financial advisors to develop the behavioral, psychological, and emotional skill set required to serve clients at the highest level. When he's not diving into the latest behavior and psychology research, he is spending time with his wife, Shannon, and two sons, Brooks and Shepherd. And, he welcomes all unsolicited advice on how to successfully raise two boys.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Songs: Tyler Hubbard - Dancin’ In The Country (Official Music Video)
Books: You're Not Listening: What You're Missing and Why It Matters by Kate Murphy, Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown
TRANSCRIPT
Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Listening is good, but I can't just sit there and not talk and expect him to go, Oh, hey, let's start working together. You may be listening, but people need to know that you're listening. They need to know that you're not thinking about what you're going to be doing that weekend. Hey, my name is Stacey Havener.
[00:00:18] I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys club, Wall Street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques. You could say against the odds. Yeah. understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes.
[00:00:46] It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales, and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy [00:01:00] hour, pull up a seat, grab your notebook and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the billion dollar backstory podcast.
[00:01:14] It's no secret that I'm the biggest fan of BFI. That's right. I think behavioral finance, human behavior, it drives everything in our industry, the markets and raising money. So today's conversation with RFG's Chief Behavioral Officer, Brendan Frazier. Is a masterclass for sales and marketing professionals.
[00:01:35] Brendan's been on both sides of the table. He started his career as a fund wholesaler and then transitioned to a financial advisor until he realized his true passion wasn't in managing the money. It was in helping the people who manage the money, he's become an industry leading podcaster, an expert in behavioral finance and a speaker who makes you think differently now at [00:02:00] 4 billion R.
[00:02:01] A. A. Platform. R. F. G. Advisory. Brendan is able to help even more advisers harness the power of people first. Today, I give Brendan some examples from Raising Capital, quote, in the wild, and he helps us make sense of what is really happening in the trenches. Get your notebook. You're gonna need it. Meet my friend, Brendan.
[00:02:23] Brendan, thank you so much for being in the studio today. I have to say, in another life, I'm gonna come back and be In BFI with you. I am obsessed with behavioral finance, so it's great for our listeners, but it's also great for me. I am so excited for this conversation. Well, thanks. Yeah, what I would say is why wait till another life?
[00:02:45] We're over here ready to welcome you with open arms as soon as you want to make the leap. Although it's BFI, but I think at the at its core, what it is that a lot of us are just fascinated by human beings. At the end of the day. Oh my gosh. Yes. [00:03:00] Yes. But there's, there's so much science to it and I'm over here kind of in the land of art.
[00:03:04] And so we're going to combine those two things today, which is going to be fantastic. But before we do that, let's get your backstory. Like how did you end up here? Did you always know you wanted to be in this business? Like take us back. No, I had no idea, but I always envied and admired those people who were like, I know exactly what I want to do.
[00:03:24] And I would sit there and be like, man, that must be nice. I think I'm going to be a doctor. I'm going to do this. And I'd be like that. That feels good. I had no idea what I want to do. One point. I thought I was going to, I wanted to be a baseball player was nowhere near good enough. So that dream came crashing down and I had no backup plan.
[00:03:39] So started in financial services. I On the wholesaling side, so selling retirement products to advisors and did that for about five years is a great way to get my feet wet, learn the industry without having to build a client base, but just learn the ins and outs and the intricacies of retirement planning and how advisors run their business and their practices.
[00:03:59] And, How to [00:04:00] evaluate investments and investment managers and all that. It was a great learning curve. It was a great training program, but there came a point where in order to move forward, you had to be willing to move. And my wife and I said, we have our family here in Nashville. We have our community here in Nashville.
[00:04:16] And so we had to sit down and have this open and honest conversation and say, Hey, if we're willing to move, there's this upward advancement, which comes with a massive jump in earnings. Like, you know, it could be making more money, like the amount of money that more money than we thought we could ever make.
[00:04:30] What do we want to do? And I think when I tell it, it sounds kind of obvious. Like, Oh, yeah, of course you want to stay with your family, stay near your community. Like, but when you're sitting there, like actually looking at it, it's not that easy of a decision you can start justifying or coming up with the reasons you're like, well, you know, if we just do this for like two years, right.
[00:04:47] And then, but not thinking about the fact that if you do it for two years and make that level of money for two years, it's not going to be that easy to just walk away. So we had to get really honest with ourselves and said, you know what, I'm okay. Giving that up and pursuing Something else [00:05:00] going in a different direction.
[00:05:01] Did the same thing with another company for about two years, still on the retirement income planning side, but was able to live in Nashville, made decent money, but ultimately then I, I was spending multiple nights a week away from home and my wife got pregnant. And so I was like, you know what? I don't want to be in a hotel room on a Tuesday night calling my son saying, Hey, buddy, how was your baseball game tonight?
[00:05:24] Meanwhile, I'm like, Oh, well, Louisville, Kentucky's looks beautiful tonight. Like, no offense to anybody that's in Louisville or that knows what's great town, but it's like, that's not what I wanted. And so at the same time had a person that I worked with boss, I guess, a boss that wasn't great. So these things come together and I go, all right, I got to do something else.
[00:05:43] I've got to figure out something that gives me more autonomy, but that I still like to do. And so that's when I made the transition and got into financial advice and started my own advisory business working with clients. So I've been working with advisors for seven years at this point. And so I figured, all right, I'll [00:06:00] take the best of what I've learned.
[00:06:02] And do that the worst of what I've learned and not do that. And then I can use that to my advantage to build this business and work with clients. And so I did that. I started getting into that. And at the same time, I was out walking my dog one day as I was trying to figure out what to do. And I, and I heard this quote where it was on the Tim Fares podcast and this guy, Derek Seavers, he said, if all we needed was information, we'd be billionaires with six packs.
[00:06:26] And I remember sitting there thinking like, man, that really is true. Like, If financial advisors, we just, we give people information, expect them to just change their behavior, but they don't just automatically change their behavior because they know what to do. It feels like there's this element of planning of if anything, but especially with money where we need to not just give advice.
[00:06:44] We need to know how to change behavior. Like we're working with human beings and it's not just an information problem. There's an execution problem. And then I remembered how all the, so many advisors when I'd work with them, they'd say things like, you know, sometimes I feel like more of a therapist [00:07:00] than I do a financial advisor, or, you know, I think I'd be better off with a degree in psychology than finance or accounting or anything numbers related.
[00:07:09] And I would start asking, okay, everybody says that, and if that's true, what do you do about it? And 9 out of 10 times I would get a blank stare like, uh, yeah, and then every now and then I would get somebody that's like, I read a book. It's like, well, is that good enough? I don't think it's good enough. If we say it's not important, that's probably not going to cut it.
[00:07:27] So I say all that to say, I figured at that point, I was like, all right, well, I'm fascinated again by behavioral finance and human beings. So, So. I decided, all right, I'm going to go on this journey to try to learn this stuff for myself as an advisor, because I do think it's important, but I want to open it up to let other advisors in on the journey.
[00:07:45] If they want to go on this journey with me, I don't know if anybody else is going to be interested. I may just be really weird. And the only one that's fascinated by it, like we may all say that it's important, but not want to do anything about it, but at the very worst, what that looked like was a podcast.
[00:07:59] So I [00:08:00] figured I'm going to invite and interview these awesome people, bright minds, and start learning these things. Worst case scenario, make some cool connections, learn things that I can use with my clients. Best case scenario. We'll see where it goes. People are interested in it grows, right? Well. The idea came in 2018.
[00:08:16] I'm a natural procrastinator came up with all the excuses not to do it. But in 2020, I finally did it fast forward to four years later to today. It turns out there's big appetite for it. People are actually interested in learning more about that stuff and how to do it. So that podcast is the human side of money still around today.
[00:08:34] And that's sort of how it came about was I'm going to do this on my own, but I'm going to open up, see if others are interested. It turns out other people are interested. There's an appetite for it. And so now I've started doing that. I've left my advisory business to start focusing on that full time because I had way more fun learning about or reading studies on how to get people to open up and connect as opposed to how to navigate the new tax laws.
[00:08:59] Oh, [00:09:00] Yes. And you've recently taken a new J. O. B. A new gig. Let's talk about that with some of my faves. Yeah. So there's a whole podcast conversation to be had around that. Like, how do you evaluate whether to keep doing what you're doing or join a team and So RFG advisory came knocking a few months ago and said, Hey, we're looking to hire a chief behavioral officer and I guess nobody really cares that much about the whole backstory behind it, but I'll just put it this way.
[00:09:29] McKinsey and company, the consulting company that well renowned, they had this study that was done. Back in 2020, and they said in 10 years, we imagine that advisors are going to be less investment managers, tax planners, retirement planners, and more like life coaches. So they didn't say they're not going to be doing those things.
[00:09:47] They didn't say that they're going to be life coaches. They basically said that when we look out in this industry in the future, because of a number of things, primarily technology, the technical side is going to become more commoditized. And there's going to be a bigger need for the [00:10:00] human element, the life coaching type, this different skillset.
[00:10:04] Essentially. And so I believed in that, obviously, but to have a, an advisory firm, an RA that comes along and says, Hey, we think this is the future. And we need somebody to come and sit in the seat to lead the charge, to spread the message, to train our advisors on how to do that. I thought about it for a little while, but I thought, you know what, I think I can have more impact in this than I can doing it on my own.
[00:10:26] And I get to keep doing the podcast, which is my favorite thing. So fun. And so all those things came together and here we are. Thank you for sharing all of that. And you know what I love, too? So many of the, of the clients we work with are founders. And a lot of times, founders end up In that entrepreneurial seat because there's a problem that they want to fix for themselves.
[00:10:50] And that really was kind of your journey to the podcast. I mean, essentially, you're a founder of an advisory practice, but also this sort of media company, [00:11:00] if you will. And it was to solve a problem that you saw that you had. And I think that some of the best businesses are born that way. Yeah, I haven't thought about it like that, but it's a great point.
[00:11:12] And it also reminds me of this concept that I think I've heard Morgan house. We'll talk about it, but Barry Rittholz, I think has mentioned it too. It's this concept of an audience of one, right? So you can start a business and found a business based on a problem you're solving for yourself. At the same time, I, like, I wasn't necessarily creating content with this overarching fear of like.
[00:11:32] Oh, will people be interested? It's just what they want to hear. Like, are they going to be searching for this? It was literally like, Hey, if this doesn't work, that's okay. I'm still going to benefit from it. And so I didn't feel this overarching pressure to optimize SEO. Now there's probably a case to be made for optimizing SEO at some point, but the focus was on, The content that I wanted to research and learn about and provide.
[00:11:54] And the reason they talk about that is because when you do it that way, A, you're more passionate about it. So you get a better [00:12:00] output, better quality, but there's always going to be people that that are drawn to that, right? And so I didn't do that intent. I wish I could say that I did that intentionally, right?
[00:12:07] Where I was like, yeah, that was my intention all along. But looking back on it, you're like audience of one. But looking back on it, I think that was a, um, hidden, not superpower, but hidden advantage that I had that. I didn't appreciate it at the time. Yes, it's almost like you didn't do it for the likes. You did it for the love, right?
[00:12:28] Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, exactly. Now I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tracking the like, like, well, do people like it? But it wasn't driving decision making. It was maybe influencing, it was maybe guiding, but it wasn't the driving force. So cool. And I know you're going to make such a big impact with the team at RFG and helping all the advisors in their community.
[00:12:50] It's going to be. something to watch and I will be cheering. I am cheering. So I want to do something different than I normally do on the podcast. I've done this a [00:13:00] few times, but because I'm just like a total geek on BFI and behavioral, can I sort of tee up some things that I've seen happening in the wild, so to speak?
[00:13:12] And then you can, Tell me if that's just like nonsensical, or if there's actually like a method to the madness and some science behind it. Can we play that game? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Okay, let's play that game. This game needs a name, by the way. I feel like we should name it. I don't know what it is, but Yeah.
[00:13:29] Alright. Okay, we gotta name it. Okay, alright. Alright, we'll think about it. We're gonna think about it as it goes. Maybe we'll have a creative moment here. Okay. So I'm going to start with something that I did recently. I recently did a webinar and it was called ditch the pitch. And I thought, okay, it's sort of like cliche, but whatever.
[00:13:46] Like it's important. We're all about story and people doing business with people. And so we do this webinar ditch the pitch. And it got like a lot for me. It had a lot of people that that signed up for it. And the idea of it [00:14:00] was In a first meeting, especially, you don't get any benefit from having a pitch book that you walk through.
[00:14:06] Really, that first meeting is about establishing, sort of, who are you? Who am I? Like, do we vibe? Do we like each other? Know each other? Like each other? Trust each other? And, I have seen that in my career to be very powerful. Like, that first meeting. Is really powerful. And I wondered if you could talk about is that real?
[00:14:29] Like, is there something to the first meeting the first part of a meeting? And how can we take advantage of that? Yeah, I think it's definitely real. And I think if we're honest with ourselves, we know that it's real. We know that yes, there's something powerful about that. We hear about first impressions all the time that goes not only for the first part of a meeting, but also like the first meeting.
[00:14:49] The way I think of it is any first interaction that you have. Yeah. It sets the trajectory for the rest of the meeting or the rest of the relationship. So for example, let's say you have a [00:15:00] great first meeting. Well, you've now set a great trajectory for the relationship, meaning like it went well, they felt heard, they felt understood, they felt like you got them.
[00:15:11] You know, their problems, they feel like you're credible and they'd like, they value your expertise. Well, now the next meeting is going to go better because the first one. Well, at the same time, first one doesn't go well, if you're lucky enough to get another one, then the trajectory is not the same. The good news is you can still bounce back, but you're not the second meeting doesn't start in the same place.
[00:15:31] And I think we tend to think of these like we'll call meetings, but these interactions, meetings, whatever they are, we tend to think of them as their own isolated events that operate. Without any implications of the past or even in the future. And what I always try to get across to anybody is so, for example, I'll have advisors that will come to me and say, Hey, I'm in this third meeting with the prospect that got over their financial plan.
[00:15:55] I've shown them exactly what they do need to do to accomplish their goals, [00:16:00] and they're still not committing. They're still not moving forward. What do I need to do differently in that meeting? Thank you for listening. To get them to move forward to engage more and move forward and the natural reaction or natural response would be, okay, well, tell me what you're doing in that meeting.
[00:16:14] And that's what I did for a long time. Then you do it long enough and you go, wait a minute. Whatever is happening in that meeting wasn't a result of that meeting. It was what happened in that meeting before and what happened in the first meeting. Meeting. How did that go? What did you do? How did, like, did you build trust?
[00:16:29] Did you build connection? Did they feel heard and understood? Because by and large, if you're at that point, they're not moving. It's probably not because they don't know your value proposition well enough. It's not that they don't know the benefit you could provide. There's something else going on. It can almost always be traced back to something that's happened.
[00:16:45] Previously fascinating or I should say something that didn't happen previously, but and I it's fair We think of these as isolated events, but they don't operate in isolation It's like a chain reaction. And so the trajectory set from the very first meeting [00:17:00] I love that I have never thought I mean, I think a lot about incremental commitment So like how you go from this stage to this stage or how you go from first meeting to second meeting but i've never thought of them sort of as As that continuum in the way that you described, that was amazing.
[00:17:17] So in that first meeting then, because that's really pivotal, which I agree with that and I've seen that, how do you establish trust? Yeah. So I do teach entire like classes and courses on this. But that's always the question, right? It's like, hey. This is something I always had an issue with it is no matter what job you're in, no matter what line of work you're in, like trust is important and people will be like, Hey, make sure you build trust, make sure you build rapport or you've heard the phrase nobody cares about how much you know until they know how much you care and you hear that and it's true.
[00:17:50] I get that, but I remember sitting there being like, right, right, right, right. How do I do that? And like, certainly some of it comes intuitively. There's some people out there that we all know [00:18:00] that just do it naturally. But like, there is a playbook. There is like research that shows ways that are effective in terms of actually being able to build and accelerate trust.
[00:18:11] I'll just hit on like some of my favorites or maybe the ones that are the most, the easiest to apply. Yeah, to implement. Sure. Or that make the biggest difference. We'll go on that spectrum of ease and impact. So what are the easiest to apply to make the biggest impact? The very first one is, I call it navigating the trust zone.
[00:18:28] So the trust zone is like the first 5 to 10 minutes of any meeting. It's especially important at first meeting, but it's that of any meeting or any interaction. So I liken it to being on a plane that's taken off. So you've been on a plane, even if you haven't, you've seen a plane, you go ask a pilot, Hey, what's the hardest part of this flight?
[00:18:48] It's not staying in the air at 30, 000 feet. Landing is always challenging, but the hardest part is getting that. Heavy piece of metal from the ground into the air, like it's trying to build up speed, [00:19:00] by the way, I'm no, um, expert when it comes to physics or aeronautics. Is aeronautics the right word? I don't even know what it is.
[00:19:05] Airplanes. Yeah, I think it is. Aviation, all of that. Aviation, yeah, yeah, whatever it is, whatever those terms are. But, I've talked to enough people to know that when they're driving, when you're trying to pick up speed, you've got the drag going against you. And it's just not natural for something that heavy to lift into the air and stay in the air.
[00:19:25] But so what they'll say is that's the hardest part is getting off the ground. But once you get off the ground, everything becomes a lot easier. And that's when we get up and everything's on autopilot and it's smooth sailing, but you have to get off the ground first. So the trust zone is like taking off.
[00:19:39] It's the same thing. It's the hardest part to get through. But if you do it, right. It creates the flow for the rest of the conversation. It makes the rest of the conversation easier. So if you think back to some conversations you've had where you're like, man, I woke up on the right side of the bed today, or man, that person was really chatty.
[00:19:54] That person was talking. If there are people like that, but by and large, if you go and you replay those [00:20:00] conversations, what you'll find is that they start in a way that gets that person out of their head and into their heart. It gets them to open up and start talking and feel safe. So you'll appreciate this.
[00:20:11] If you go research, who are the best interviewers of all time? What's the best advice on how to be a great interviewer? If you go find like Oprah, there's a lady named Polina. Anyway, she's a famous interviewer. There's another one out there. If you go look at what they say, they all say that they spend more time on the first question they asked than any other question.
[00:20:30] Because they're intentionally trying to get that person to feel safe and open up by getting out of their head and into their heart as fast as possible. And if you can get them out of their head and into their heart, that gets them talking. Are you an investment boutique looking to grow your business and need a little help?
[00:20:49] If you feel like you're fighting for the spotlight and well, still stuck in the shadows of the bigs, join us in the Boutique Investment Collective, Havener's new membership community dedicated to the specialist in the [00:21:00] investment industry. In the collective, we'll guide you through the billion dollar blueprint we've used to help boutiques add over 30 billion in AUM.
[00:21:08] You'll refine your story, focus on your ideal target market and practice your pitch. You'll rethink your marketing materials, rewrite your emails, and refresh your differentiators. We'll even help you step up your LinkedIn game and give your profile a makeover. You want to grow your biz, we've got your back.
[00:21:25] Learn more about The Collective, the curriculum, and the amazing coaches who will help you on your journey. Visit havenercapital. com slash collective. High five! Hope to see you in a coaching session soon.
[00:21:46] So how do you do that? Let's say it's the, basically the question, right? Okay. That sounds good, but how do I actually do that? Are people going to want to open up that fast? I think of them as three E questions, but the idea is to ask questions that are easy to [00:22:00] answer. That they're exciting to answer.
[00:22:02] People want to answer them and they have an emotional component to it. Now, oftentimes, not always, oftentimes these questions will revert to the past about their life because that's easily accessible and something that's easier to answer. Let me give you an example of one that doesn't work. Whenever I go get my hair cut, here's what not to do.
[00:22:21] Yeah. And here's what not to do. And here's what a lot of us do. I still do it sometimes when I hop on zoom calls, it's how I start off. And in my back, my mind, I'm like, you hypocrite don't do that. So when I go get my haircut and by the way, I've used this example before. I hope the guy that cuts my hair doesn't try to go find these podcasts.
[00:22:37] He'll probably, I don't want a bad haircut when I go get my haircut. I'll sit down and the guy's always like, so how's life. And I'm like, I appreciate the intent, although I'm not sure he actually cares. I appreciate the intent if he does care, but like, I don't sit around all day thinking about how his life now, my therapist would probably say I should, but I don't.
[00:22:57] And so it's a, right, [00:23:00] right. And that's the thing. It's just a really big question. And so. If you want better answers, you gotta ask better questions. So how do you ask questions that are easy, exciting, and emotional? It would be things like, Stacey, you've been doing this a long time. You've got great LinkedIn content.
[00:23:15] You're a well known name in the industry, but you decided to start a podcast. I'm curious, what led to that decision to start a podcast after all these years? Like something that you would like to talk about? Well, correct me if I'm wrong, by the way, but you'd probably be happy to share about your podcast, right?
[00:23:29] No, that's great. Happy to talk about that. Of course. It could be more generically, like I live in Nashville, so if you want looking like if that was specific to you, but if you're like, hey, I don't have time to research the person, then it'd be like, hey, how long have you been in Nashville and what brought you here or you've been in Nashville for like five years?
[00:23:46] How did you guys even end up deciding to move here? Did you leave family behind? Or if you talk to a business owner, business owners love founders love nothing more than to talk about their business. And so one of my favorite questions to ask was, [00:24:00] I'd be talking to somebody, they're like eight years in their business is doing well.
[00:24:04] And it's like, Hey, I know you have this business and it's doing awesome. I don't think I've ever asked you before. Where were you when you had the idea to start this business? Like, how did that even come to you? Where were you at? Where did that come from? And you'd be, well, you probably wouldn't be amazed you'd expect, but you might be amazed.
[00:24:19] They have this sort of like nostalgic smile on their face as they're going back and reflecting on And so the problem, if you do this right, is no longer, Hey, how do I get people to open up and share with me? The problem is how do I get this person to shut up because we have to get on to other things.
[00:24:33] And that's ultimately, that's ultimately the problem that you want to have, but it's about being intentional right out of the gate and getting them to a place where they're comfortable, that's creating conversational flow. You literally just took my meeting playbook, ditched the pitch, that is exactly what we talked about.
[00:24:52] That question, by the way, is the premise of my entire podcast and basically my whole career. Like, I would just talk to people and be like, tell me [00:25:00] the story of how you started this firm. And you're right, they love it. They love to tell that story. And so again, this is what I love. Like I'm seeing this in the wild and you're telling me, yes, yes, that's actually a thing.
[00:25:14] Okay. We're going to continue on our game game that still needs a name. Okay. The other thing that I, so I'm big on storytelling. Yeah. However, I have said that there's another side of storytelling, which is story listening. Also something that salespeople and fund managers and anyone who's pitching is not really that good at the listening part.
[00:25:40] Can you talk about that? Can you take us to listening school? Oh, man. Yeah. Okay. So, well, first of all, I was going to ask you this. When you say story listening, I think I know what it means, but can you give a quick Yeah, of course. So, let's say with your example. Oh, okay. And exactly what I was [00:26:00] teaching in Ditch the Pitch.
[00:26:01] You ask this question of the founder, and now you need to listen. Like, you need to listen more than you talk. It's all about the questions that you ask. However, it's like the act of listening. They're telling a story, you can't be sitting there going, okay, yeah, um. It's nice outside. And like, what am I going to say next?
[00:26:22] And like, you know, what am I going to have for lunch? And like, you can't just ask the question. There's a reason to ask questions and there's information that you can then use to actually make your pitch stronger. And that's the part that it's like, it's not enough to just get them to tell a story. You have to actually listen to the story and use it to keep that conversation going.
[00:26:45] Yeah. So there's like two elements to that. One is like, how do you listen well in general? Because you have to be able to listen well to get them to tell you these things. And then like, how do you find the things? That you want to listen for. It's like you have to listen well and then you have to pick out the things that [00:27:00] you can use.
[00:27:00] Well, I think the first thing we could say is you're not going to have things to pick out that you can use. They're not going to keep talking and let you listen if you're not listening really, really well. Like totally. So I think that's the part that you have to, that you have to nail down first. I mean, so this is something that I get.
[00:27:14] Really passionate about, which is fun in one way. Like I love this idea of listening is powerful. How do we get better at it? No one really teaches us this at the same time. What's kind of funny is I've recognized through, I guess, social media, putting things out in the public, and this is backed up by research too, by the way, but People generally think that they're way better listening than they actually are.
[00:27:32] Like we tend to think that we're better. It's like people think they're better looking than the average person, better drivers than the average person. We think we're more athletic than the average person. Listening is the same thing. We all think that we're a better listeners than we actually are. So the first thing I want to do is just challenge anybody to just be honest with yourself and think, am I.
[00:27:53] Truly a good listener. And if the answer to that question is yes, then what you do is you go text three people close to you and you say, Hey, I was just [00:28:00] listening to this podcast. This guy asked a question and he challenged us to do this. He, he said to text three people in your life and ask who is the best listener and what does that person do so well that makes them such a great listener.
[00:28:10] And if one of those responses back doesn't mention you, then you're probably have some work to do because they're going to feel obliged or a little bit obligated to mention you. Worst case scenario, you don't get mentioned and you learn about what makes somebody good listener. So. First and foremost, let's be humble about how good are we actually at listening.
[00:28:28] There's another thing we know. We were talking about my books behind me a second ago. This isn't great for podcasting, obviously. But there's this book called You're Not Listening. That's awesome. Loved it. In there, she points out, and think about this yourself too. But when they go ask people, how many people do you have in your life That you would say, truly listen to you.
[00:28:48] How many does it come out to be a handful? Yeah. Well, so you're lucky then. I probably have a small handful, less than five, less than five. See, that's pretty normal. Almost half of people said nobody. Oh, and [00:29:00] then the majority of people after that said they had one or two at most. And then when you look at who the one and two are, as you would imagine, it's usually a family member or just like a really, really close friend.
[00:29:13] And so first of all, that's sad. It is very sad. Second of all, it should remind us that we're not good listeners. And then third of all, I think we want to, the other reason I bring that up is because it makes the point that if you can truly listen to somebody, like truly actually listen to somebody, you almost immediately elevate yourself, not to the same level as somebody that's their family member or a really close friend, but you're at least in the realm.
[00:29:41] You're not the same as everybody else. You're not down below with everybody else that doesn't listen. You're elevating yourself a little bit further above. So not saying that you want to be like a really close friend with every person that you're trying to work with and do business with, but you do want a level of trust and connection and listening is a way to do that.
[00:29:58] So one last thing, because I feel like whenever [00:30:00] I, whenever we talk about listening, one of the things you have to do is Before you can talk about how to do it is talk about how important it is or why it's so important. So the last thing to help hammer that point home is there've been others, there's been research that's been done where they hook people's brains up to these scanners.
[00:30:17] I forget what they're called, but they hook the brains up to the scanner. And what they find is that when we talk about ourselves, when we're talking about ourselves, it lights up the same area of the brain as eating chocolate. And sexual activity. So regardless of your preferences, just know the vast majority of people in life enjoy both of those things immensely.
[00:30:38] And what is the reward center of the brain? It's like the pleasure center. And so when we're talking about ourselves, that part of our brain is lighting up. And so, like, that's why being on this podcast is so fun because I've just got to sit here and talk for the last, like, however many minutes and my brain is just firing on all cylinders.
[00:30:56] Like, oh, this is great. Stacy's asking me questions. I get to talk. It's [00:31:00] also why when you go to a party and you're sitting, you're talking to somebody and you leave and you're like, man, this is great. That person was awesome. I really liked that person. I want to hang out with them again. I would bet anything my house don't tell my wife this, but I would bet our house that if we went back and had a recording and replayed that conversation, you talked more than they did.
[00:31:16] Like they showed an interest in you and you got to talk about yourself and your brain was lighting up and you were like, I like that person. I really liked that person. So that's the other thing in that. It's so true, which says why pitches don't work, because typically, and you know this from being on the wholesaler side, typically it's like, aha, I've got them, you know, I've got them, they must listen to me for 30 minutes while I read these, you know, 30 slides and they have no choice because I bought them pizza and I gave them golf balls.
[00:31:46] Right? Like they're mine now. Ha ha ha. And that does not work. So help us with, okay, people who are listening are like, yes, I agree with this. And I love the part about letting people talk because they'll think it's a better meeting. [00:32:00] It's just so true and so brilliant. How do we listen and do something good with what we're hearing?
[00:32:06] When you say good, you mean like, how do we use it? Yeah, let me, that wasn't a great word. How do we listen? Hear them, see them, and also know that like we're in this meeting to move a deal forward or see if there's a deal or see if there's a partnership, like how can we bridge like they're talking, I'm not pitching and yet I still want to move this thing.
[00:32:27] In other words, let me see if I got this right, it's like listening is good. But I can't just sit there and not talk and expect him to go, Oh, Hey, let's start working together. Like at some point I have to bridge that to like the next thing. Right. Yes. Totally fair. I get that a lot. It's like, all right, Brendan.
[00:32:46] Great. I get it. But like, you can't not talk and just expect them to immediately go, you know what? Those are, he listened really well. Let's work together. Yeah. So first and foremost, when you're listening, you may be listening, but [00:33:00] people need to know that you're listening. Like they need to know that you're not thinking about what you're going to be doing that weekend.
[00:33:06] And so there's a number of ways to do it, but let's just talk about probably the easiest and most effective way, which is just simply asking follow up questions. So in other words, it's like when somebody is like, Hey, I got, I just went to, uh, we just got back from Italy. I'm like, Oh, no way. You went to Italy.
[00:33:22] Where'd you go? Well, we went to Rome, Florence. What'd you do? What was your favorite thing? And just continue asking them questions about themselves that signaling that you're listening. And so when you ask, I always say the most powerful question is a follow up question because what it does is it's instantly signals to that other person.
[00:33:40] That you're interested that you're listening and that you want to know more and it's okay for them to feel comfortable opening up and telling you more. Not everybody has this filter, but most people have this filter when they're talking where they're like, are they listening? Am I losing them? Are they interested?
[00:33:55] Like, do I keep going? And we all know the people that don't. Because they just [00:34:00] keep going, but most people have this thing going on where they're like, do they really want to know? And so what happens is when you ask a follow up question, it tells them like, Oh, okay. They're interested. I can keep talking about this.
[00:34:10] So that's one way to show or demonstrate that you're listening as far as like how to do it or how to use it. Ultimately, the way to think about it is the better questions you ask, the more you listen, the better information and insight you're You're going to be able to glean. In other words, the more information you're armed with to use to your advantage.
[00:34:34] And so oftentimes, like one of the things you want to do is you, you want to ask questions that ultimately sort of highlight the need to work with you. That's the best way to do it and have them sort of go, okay, yeah, I see the benefit to this, but yeah, but the best way to do it, or, I mean, I shouldn't say the best way, but one of the ways to do it is you, you've listened well, you've gathered all this information more than you would have if you were just sitting there talking.
[00:34:57] And then you want to take what you've learned more of what you've learned [00:35:00] and then attach what they've said to your pitch. So it's not a standard pitch. You've got to take it and mold it. And then when you're making the, we'll call it the pitch, you're making the pitch directly to what they said, using their own words back to them.
[00:35:16] So I'll give you an example because examples are always helpful. I don't have a great one from. The investment management world, but just because it's one that's a bit that I know well, but working with a client with for financial planning, I could sit there and I could tell him like, Hey, we do all these great things with your, we get your retirement plan outlined.
[00:35:34] Then we'll build you a portfolio that's diversified, has asset allocation, your insurance in place and check it. We'll check that out. But when I was meeting with this one person, he didn't say, Hey, I want. Retirement planning and investment management and an insurance analysis. He said, I want to make sure that I'm not the 73 year old that hates my life.
[00:35:54] And I need help selecting the right accounts and knowing how much money to put in them. And I only found that out [00:36:00] because I asked the questions and listened to what he said. And so instead of my pitch being, Hey, we're going to help you get a good retirement plan in place, that's in this diversified portfolio.
[00:36:10] That will maximize your return and lower your risk until you're 65. I was able to say, Hey, what we do is we help people pick the right account, know exactly how much to put in those accounts so that when you get to the point, when you're 73, you're not going to hate your life. And they're hearing their own words repeated back and they're going, they have the solution to my exact problem.
[00:36:34] The pitch is no longer about what you do and what you do. Well, it's tailored exactly to what they need because you listened well enough to find out what that was. I love that so much. And my favorite part, which no one could see me, but I was doing like basically fist, like fist pumps in the air was, um, we'll have to have our team make a video of that.
[00:36:53] Um, was when you said use, like, give their words back to them. Yeah, I noticed that. I was, yeah. That is like [00:37:00] so, Underestimated and I don't even know if people think about this like I'm talking don't edit it at all Yeah, right, right give them their words back and watch what happens because it makes it their idea Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:16] Yeah. Yeah. See i'll do the i'll do the hands in the air, too It does right it's like It goes from them being sold something. Are you pitching them something to them feeling like well? Oh my gosh, that is exactly what I need. This is my idea. This is what I, it's so simple, not easy, but so simple. That was awesome.
[00:37:39] Wait, so do you, can we do one more thing on this? Yeah. So I call it mirroring their words. I don't call it. That's pretty well. It's mirroring their words. So there's a study out there that was done and they had two groups of waiters and waitresses. In group one, they had them take these people's orders.
[00:37:55] They're sitting at the table. They took the orders from the people at the table and the first group would [00:38:00] take the order and then they would praise the order. So they order a cheeseburger with lettuce and tomatoes and they go, all right, great. You're going to love it. Our cheeseburger is awesome. Great pick.
[00:38:10] Then they had another group. They would take an order and then what they did was they would just simply repeat back what the people ordered. So they ordered a cheeseburger with lettuce and tomato. And they said cheeseburger with lettuce and tomato. So they do this run the experiment. They go look and they go check afterwards.
[00:38:27] The group that didn't praise, but that just repeated the words back. The order back had a 70 percent increase in the tips that they received because there's something about hearing our own words repeated back that signals this. Similarity, this connection that's like, yeah, that person hears me and gets me and understands me.
[00:38:45] And so it led to higher levels of likability and that led to higher tips. So the group that did the praise did not repeat the order back exactly or they did they only praise So they would just say that's a great pick people love the cheeseburger. [00:39:00] Gotcha. The other group read it back to them Exactly how it was said.
[00:39:04] Yes, exactly. And that's the group that got the higher 70 percent higher tips I would not have thought that right. I mean who would right like don't people want to be praised But no what people want to be that's the part that's getting me What people want is to be heard and understood. They like to be praised.
[00:39:22] Don't get me wrong. So that's fascinating What would happen if you read it back exactly and then said it was? Yeah, now that Is that that's the question? Let's find out who did this research and say guys you left out an important part Yeah, we want one more group. That is so interesting Okay All right, back to our game.
[00:39:42] This is fun because you've been on the other side of the table. So when I talk about these sort of sales scenarios, you've actually probably lived some of these. Okay, so we're going to talk about you're building your business, whether it's an advisory firm or an investment management firm. You've got a sales funnel.
[00:39:57] Please tell us you have a sales funnel and you have a [00:40:00] CRM in some way of tracking it. So we're going to, yes, you do. And there's always this like reluctance. Of salespeople to kill a deal they will and I say this with so much peace and love in my heart because I am a salesperson, but salespeople like to keep a big, huge fat funnel with a whole bunch of maybes on it, right?
[00:40:22] Where I kind of feel like can we get to a fast? No. We can we get to a fast note? No is the second best answer. Maybe is a killer. Is that real? Well, first of all, why are we hung up on keeping these maybes in our funnel? Why can't we get to a no? And should we be driving to a no? If it's okay, I'm gonna ask you a question.
[00:40:42] Yeah, of course. First, because I want to hear your, your take on it. What's your theory as far as why We keep the maybes. I'll add a context with this. Maybe just think about that. Maybe the question first is, what's your theory as to why? But as an addendum to that, what I would say [00:41:00] is, I don't think there's many people in sales of some sort.
[00:41:05] I guess we're all in sales. I don't think there's many people that would say that they disagree. I think a lot of us have heard this where it's like, Yes, you need to get a no. Maybe it's not good. Like embrace no. Get it to a quicker no. I think a lot of people Here. I believe that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's why I'm curious.
[00:41:22] Like in your experience, what do you think keeps the maybes there?
[00:41:30] Okay. That's really good. Okay. So I would say this and I'm absolutely fine. If I'm incorrect, I think intellectually We know that we need no's, right? Right. However, somewhere emotionally in our heart, ego, something in us hates the no because it's a loss. We view it as, I lost it. It's a failure. And I don't want to [00:42:00] admit failure, especially if I'm a competitive salesperson.
[00:42:04] Yeah, you're telling me there's a chance. I got a chance. I got a shot. There's no way like the guy hasn't called me back in a year, but there is a chance that he will take my call this week. Yeah. What is that? And here's the other thing that I know happens. A, because I have been there and been so guilty of this and B, because you hear it a lot.
[00:42:26] And that is, you go, again, you know it intellectually, you know it in your mind. Yes, I need the nose. These babies probably aren't helping me out, but there's still a chance. And then we're like, there's still a chance. And, you know, by the way, there was this one guy two years ago that I hadn't talked to in three years and I kept calling him and then he finally came through.
[00:42:46] And because of that one guy, two years ago, I think every one of these other maybes could be that one guy. I mean, I forget what this is, a behavioral bias thing too, where we like tend to cling to these. Like, it's essentially just like a small [00:43:00] sample size mistake where you're like, it's this one success that I had that I'm letting drive this decision where I'm like, yeah, that one guy, he's only here because I left him in the maybe pile.
[00:43:10] If I didn't leave him there, then who knows? Where we'd be. Who knows what could have happened. Right. And so I sympathize with that. I think that's a totally fair thought, but it's not the right way to think about it, ultimately. And so, also, I'll add this. Before I offer a couple thoughts, which is, I don't know that I don't necessarily have any great research or groundbreaking insights on doing this.
[00:43:36] I also don't think that I ever really mastered it. I think I got better at it. I don't think I ever mastered it. So I think two ways to approach it. One is mindset. First, you gotta get your mindset right before you can do the tactics. So I'll talk about a mindset first and then a tactic. Second, so mindset wise, I had to try to figure out how to like trick myself into doing it, like giving [00:44:00] myself a motivating reason to do it.
[00:44:03] And so for me, what that ultimately became was for every person that I'm In the maybe bucket that I'm still spending and wasting time on, not just actual time, like clock time, but also just mental energy and capacity, trying to remember, what did we talk about last time we talked, even if I had a CRM, just like wasting the time and energy to go back and recount, what did we talk about?
[00:44:26] What was their issue? What did I help with? What did I do? It's like, yes, there's a time cost, but there's also this mental time costs as well, right? And so I would think of it and go for every person, I had to kind of look at it and go, all right, in the maybe pile, what, what do I likely think could come out of this?
[00:44:42] It was like small percentage, a small number. And you go for every minute that I waste in this funnel, in this part of the funnel, there's somebody else out there that wants my help, that I can help, that I'm not. Pursuing like I'm letting them down somebody out there that needs me. I'm [00:45:00] letting them down because I'm so focused on the maybe part because it feels more comfortable and I don't want to lose.
[00:45:06] That's not, that's a me issue. Like I need to be okay losing. And so that was the first part. It was like, what's the cost of this and getting just really honest with myself about the cost of it. And then as far as like, from there doing it, it was just a matter of like small steps, not saying, Hey, I'm going to just take this maybe funnel and delete it and say, I'm done with it.
[00:45:29] But it was like, I'm going to take like five people in here, try to get a no as fast as I can. And then even if I, if I can't get one after three tries, then I'm just taking them out altogether, like setting, giving yourself a set process to work within. So try to get a no. Give yourself three tries, not saying, Hey, I'm going to do it for, I'm going to try to get a no.
[00:45:49] And then pretty soon I'll do it, but being like, Hey, I'm only doing it three more times, or maybe it's one more time. And maybe it's two more times, but just give yourself a set parameter, do it. And on the third, you got to take them out. So at [00:46:00] some point, it's just a matter of doing it, not in a big way, but just taking small steps.
[00:46:04] And then once you do it and you're like, all right. I just took 10 people out of there. You come in like the next week, two weeks later, you're like, huh, nothing's really changed. Like that doesn't feel as bad as I thought that it was going to feel. This isn't as detrimental as I thought it was going to be.
[00:46:18] The building is still here. Like my other clients are still here. The world's not falling apart. I still have a job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shocker. Yeah. Totally. So I love that. And actually one of the frameworks that we teach, there must be some behavioral around I'm laughing. Okay. So I have this framework that we teach and it's the filler kill.
[00:46:40] So, you know, a filler kill trade execution. Well, we apply that to sales. So it's naturally following what you said. So I'm feeling like I'm feeling good about the framework, which is when a deal has been on the funnel for a while and it's gone stale and we have like a timeframe and everything that [00:47:00] we use, we have a sequence that we will send.
[00:47:03] That's the filler kill. And it's basically, to your point, it's three activities, combination of email and calls. And the last one is an email that basically says, I'm going to close out this opportunity. Haven't heard from you. I'm going to close out this opportunity and buy basically. Okay. I will tell you, do you know how many people write back on that?
[00:47:29] A lot and they go, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't close out the opportunity. And it's like, bro, where are you, Ben? Yes. Right, right. So something happens like the filler kill. When you tell people I'm going to take you basically out of my funnel. They're like, don't do that. I'm still watching it. Yeah. I've heard this before.
[00:47:50] Did you know Stephanie Bogan? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Stephanie talks about this. She says the same thing. It's amazing what it happens when you take the opera when you're like, Hey, I'm not going to follow up [00:48:00] anymore. People are like, Whoa, hang on. Hang on. I need to do something. It's kind of like when I told my wife and we were dating, I was like, Hey, listen, or no, we weren't dating.
[00:48:07] We were hanging out. She didn't want to date me. I was like, all right, listen, either we're going to date. Or we're not going to be friends because I don't really want to be friends with a girl that and This is just there's my belief as a what was I 20 year old? Sure So I was like we're either gonna date Or I just don't want to be friends with you I've got more things that I would rather do and it's like as soon as I took it off the table It was like hey fisher cut bait She was like, okay, fine.
[00:48:27] I'll date you now. I don't know if that was good or not. We ended up getting married. Yeah. Well, I think so. I hope she still thinks that maybe that's still up in the air, but I think that is a behavioral thing. I don't know what it is. There's probably a term for it or something, but it is a behavioral thing.
[00:48:40] And the other thing that I've learned as far as a language tweak in terms of follow up emails is instead of following up, With just like these nice kind response. Well, first of all, don't be a jerk, but like, instead of being like, Hey, I just want to follow up, see how you're doing on the, see if you've done this yet, take the approach of, Hey, [00:49:00] I'm assuming this has fallen off the radar for now, Hey, is it safe to assume this is no longer a priority for you?
[00:49:07] Or you're like, Hey, I'm guessing you're out on this. And so I remember reading this and I, I can't remember exactly why it works. I w it'd be way better if I could tell you exactly why, but ultimately we want to know what to do anyway. So I remember reading it and being like, all right, I'm going to try this out with some of my own programs that I was running.
[00:49:24] And I would have people that would read, they'd be like, Hey, send me the information. I want to check it out. And I would send it to him two weeks ago by, and I'd be like, Hey, have you made any decisions yet? Just fun to follow up, see what you're thinking. It'd be like crickets, you know, as we all know, you feel ghosted, but then you're like, Hey, I'm assuming that you decided that you're not wanting to do this.
[00:49:42] I'm assuming that you're out and, and you get, now it's not the silver bullet. It doesn't solve all your problems. It's not a hundred percent response rate, but you'd be amazed at how many people write back and be like, Hey, I'm so sorry. I forgot to let you know, like, yes, I'm out. But. Like here's why keep me in the loop or they'll be like, Oh no, I'm so [00:50:00] sorry.
[00:50:00] Thanks for following up. Give me another week. I've got to mention it and see if I can get it approved. But like tweaking the language inspires or evokes something in them to be like, I need to respond. Yeah. So doing that, giving the kill on the sequence, right? The kill at the end of the three emails, like those are small things you can do to not improve your yeses necessarily.
[00:50:22] It could, but you're improving. Your response is you can move people one way or the other and have less maybes. Less maybes. That's the goal. I think that's the takeaway. Have less maybes. And it feels weird because you're a salesperson and you want to have this fat funnel. But the reality is like, focus on the high probability deals.
[00:50:42] And I really have to work with salespeople on filler kill. They don't want to do it. I'm like, I'm telling you, just get it. If it's not going to happen, why are we even talking about it? The next step for the last Four months has been like schedule a call like so what gifts we're not scheduling the call.
[00:50:57] So let's move on I mean it it is [00:51:00] freeing once you once you kind of get the the courage around it. Yeah. Yep No, you're exactly right. So this has been fun We did not come up with a name for this game, but I feel like that's going to be a to do for both of us Yeah, wait, can I add one more thing on the fill or kill thing?
[00:51:15] It came to me as you after you wished. Yes, we do need a name or I guess add one more thing on the You Maybe bucket and moving on and getting saying, Hey, I'm going to cut bait. So I was just thinking about this in the moment. I don't think I've ever met anybody that may be a little too much. I don't think I have.
[00:51:33] Anyways, I don't think I've ever met anybody that goes. Yeah. I decided to just start whittling people out, getting to know, moving on, narrowing my maybe bucket and focusing more on getting the right people in. I don't think I've ever met anybody that made that decision that didn't came back and was like, That was a bad idea.
[00:51:51] Like man, do I wish that I would have kept my maybe bucket, my maybe funnel as big as possible. Like you don't hear that. Usually people are [00:52:00] like, I was scared to do it, but I finally did it. And it was a little weird at first, but now I look at what I'm doing now and how much more time I have to bring the right people in.
[00:52:08] And I wish I would've done it sooner. It's almost inevitably, it's what you hear almost a hundred percent of the time. Part of your funnel is going to be the fattest part. And so then when you're cycling your funnel, do you know how much time you're spending looking up this person, emailing them to your point, calling them and da da da.
[00:52:25] And you could be getting new clients or working on the ones that are later stage or whatnot. So I think that's it. Less maybes. We've got like no more maybes. You got to get out of the maybe game. Yeah. Be brave. It's okay. You're still going to have a job. This has been so much fun. So our homework is we have to think of a name for our game, and can I end by asking you a couple questions, like personal kind of Proust questionnaire, get to know Brendan a little bit more questions?
[00:52:54] Yeah, please do. Okay. All right, here we go. Now, I don't know how you're going to answer this, because I'm looking at you [00:53:00] with literally like a thousand books behind you, but the first question is, what book inspires you? Normally it's an easy one. For you, it could actually be pretty challenging. Yeah. So on my podcast at the end, I'll ask if you could gift everybody listening one book, what would it be?
[00:53:16] And I always feel so guilty asking it because it's like, that's a, I mean, one book that's hard. Right. It's a very hard question. Yeah. How about what book is inspiring you now? So I was going to say the word inspires in your question was interesting. Cause I was like, Inspired would be like one that I've read that's had a big impact.
[00:53:34] Inspires feels more like one that I'm reading. Yeah. So I'll do the one that when I think of it as inspired, past book, big impact. The first one that comes to mind when I think of it that way is the book Essentialism. I love that book. And I say that because I think it had the biggest impact on my life and my business.
[00:53:57] So it was like both at the same [00:54:00] time, not just like 10X is easier than 2X. I loved it. Love. But that felt like just like great for business applicable to life, but not directly. Whereas essentialism was like, I can use this in life. I can use it in business. And so it sort of started shaping the way that I, you know, Be life really in business and making decisions and all that.
[00:54:18] And so that's one, the one that's inspiring me at the moment is one that I've heard about for a while. It's right on brand with my message. And people kept saying, Brittany, you need to read it, Brittany, you need to read it. And for whatever reason, I didn't, I don't have a good reason for that. And it's die with zero.
[00:54:31] You're familiar with that zero. Okay. So die with zero. It's about how basically living the best life you can. We're using all of your money to live your best life and not saving up a bunch of money to use at a future date that you're never actually going to use. But how to use your money to live your ideal life, essentially.
[00:54:48] And he frames it really well and makes some great case. It's really good. It changes the way you think about Money and how to use it to fund your life. So that is awesome. Yeah. Those are the two, two [00:55:00] great ones in my opinion. Yeah. Okay. What place inspires you? Yeah. So I have an immediate answer to this and then I go, is that the easy one?
[00:55:10] Is that, or is that the right one? But I think the answer is definitely sitting on the beach. Or on a balcony overlooking the beach with a drink in my hand. Oh. Isn't it crazy how I, I mean, talking to someone who is right there with you loving the beach, there's something about the horizon. And how endless it is Yes, no, this is random and I actually don't know that I should keep recommending this book because a few people in my Family read it and they're like that was a really bad book.
[00:55:43] Like it was really dry. Not bad They're like it was really dry But there's a book I love this book. Like I ended up in tears at the end So I don't understand how this is so disconnected, but there's a book called blue Mind blue mind. Okay, and it's all [00:56:00] about You the power of water and what it does to us as humans.
[00:56:05] I loved it. I ended up in tears at the end. The asterisk on that is I recommended it to some people in my family who were avid readers and they were like, boring AF. I'm like, I don't understand. Well, maybe something's wrong with them. I think so. I mean, that's what I've concluded. There's no other answer, really.
[00:56:23] If I read it and I feel the same, I won't tell you. You should tell me. But I am curious to know, what have you changed in your life around water as a result of reading that book? Okay, it's a great question. Here's the thing. I think for you, especially because you just gave the answer on place, It corroborates why you feel that way, but also I am somebody, and I don't know how you, where you fall on this spectrum of this, I am somebody who likes to look at the water.
[00:56:52] I am not necessarily the person who's going to get in it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I like to sit by the beach and [00:57:00] walk on the beach, but I'm not the first one that's going to run and like dive into the waves. However, after that book, I was like, no, I actually have to, as best I can, if I'm somewhere warm, I need to get in the water.
[00:57:12] Really? Yes. All right. Well, we're going to the beach next week. We're having a book club now, and Blue Mind is in it. And so is Daiwa Zero. Okay, next question. Okay, we're going to pretend that you're at the RFG Growth Conference next year, okay? And you're taking the stage, and they've decided they have a DJ, and they're going to play a song.
[00:57:34] You're welcome. While you walk out, they're not gonna read your intro because they've heard this podcast and like he doesn't like it. We're going to go with a song instead. What is the song? Great question, but I have a clarifying question. Okay, I think it's important. You're probably like, I don't ask these questions to get questions back, Brendan.
[00:57:51] I I'm absolutely fine with clarifying questions. All right. Okay. Is the purpose of this song for me? Yeah. [00:58:00] Or for the crowd. Well, that's a very good behavioral question to ask. I am going to say that you have to decide because you're going to pick the song. So it's actually your choice. And so when you say the song, you have to tell us why.
[00:58:15] And normally I don't ask people to tell us why they picked that. But they can hear the song. Is that right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it's like, I mean, you're taking the stage and this song is playing while you are stepping on. I'll say this first. It's interesting that you asked this question. And the reason I asked the clarifying question is because one of my pre speaking rituals is to like right beforehand to listen to music, like right before I walk in, because it helps like trigger me into the right mindset.
[00:58:44] And so I have my song that I listened to before I get up. All right, then let's do both. What are you listening to before you get on the stage? So it varies a little bit if I feel like I'm into it still and my presentations have been speaking has been going well I'll stick with it. It's all almost [00:59:00] always inevitably some like pop country song.
[00:59:02] So please everybody listening. Feel free to judge bring it on That's fine But it's called dancing in the country by Tyler Hubbard because it's like upbeat and happy and it like gets me in the right So that's what's in your headset. And now what are they going to play when you take the stage? Is it that like for the audience to hear as you walk out?
[00:59:25] Probably not. If I was going to do this for real, I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about this because I think it matters. I can tell you'd have a whole like thought process behind it. I love it. Yeah. Well, welcome to the world of Brendan, who likes to think. Think that everything matters, which I do think, but then I overthink everything.
[00:59:41] And there's probably a, it would need to be something like with kind of like an upbeat, happy tongue. Cause that's how my speaking usually is. It's like upbeat, happy, energetic for the most part, sad stories in there. It would also depend on the audience, right? If it's like an older group of advisors, I told you it's RFG.
[00:59:58] It's what we just did. [01:00:00] Oh, right. Oh yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yep. You know what? We're going to go a little Taylor Swift. That's right. Like an answer. Never been said on this podcast. Brilliant answer. My God. So good. I don't know which one, but like, it's just not going to go wrong. And if anybody is like, I don't want to listen to this, like I don't want them in the audience anyway.
[01:00:20] It's not going to go wrong. That is fantastic. People are like, did he just say Taylor Swift? Did that, did I hear that right? Yes, he did. And it, and it won. One big, all right. Here we go. What profession other than your own, would you like to attempt? Is it okay to attempt if I know I'm going to fail? Yeah.
[01:00:38] Okay. Guaranteed failure. Is that okay? Totally. All right. Then definitely I'd like to be a major league baseball player. I was hoping you were going to say that. That would be great. Why wouldn't you say that? That's awesome. Childhood dream. And we're living it. Well, because I feel like I already tried it and it didn't work.
[01:00:55] So why not try again? I mean, yeah, there you go. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. What [01:01:00] profession would you not like to do? A lot, but yeah, many of them, but I'm going to go with, I mean, there's, I could name a bunch of them just off the top of my head that aren't as fun, you know, like engineering that would just drive me crazy.
[01:01:16] I would go, I would lose my mind. Accounting, same thing. Would never want to be a therapist. Right? My wife doesn't. She's awesome at it, but yeah, I mean, aren't you partially a therapist right now? Not to the degree that you have to be in there what they do, right? Yeah, you know, you know way more you're like no because what she's doing with his is next level Those are all fair.
[01:01:37] That can be your answer unless you want to continue thinking about it. Am I missing anything good? No, we'll just leave it at that. That's yeah. I don't have anything better than we'll stick with those. Yeah Okay, that's great. I mean you gave three and you only needed to do one so you overachieved Okay, here we go.
[01:01:53] And this is not going to happen for a while, but still What do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the [01:02:00] industry? I think it's like two things. Maybe there's a semicolon. Okay. You can have semicolons. Absolutely. So it would be the industry is vastly better off because he was here.
[01:02:15] Semicolon. It was time for him to go. Because. I don't think that I don't know many industries, many businesses, many professions, many organizations that can just stick with something, the same thing for that long without growing stagnant industries and professions and organizations need new voices, need new people and injection of ideas.
[01:02:41] And I'm not saying that I wouldn't be able to do that. But just in case I get old and can't think straight anymore, and I'm just saying the same things over and over again, and we need a fresh voice. It's like the industry is definitely better off. He made it a better place. Lives have been changed and we're going to be better now that he's not here because we can get a [01:03:00] fresh injection of thoughts and ideas to build on what Brendan brought to the table.
[01:03:04] What a fabulous answer. It feels weird to say it. Yeah, but it's really, really good. You should definitely keep that one around. That is a great answer. I think you need to, because also there's something in that about like passing the baton as a voice that, you know, is so powerful right now. There's something in there that I love, which is passing the baton to the next voice.
[01:03:29] Ah, it's really good. But it also kind of goes against our, like, like, something natural and innate within us. It's like, we don't operate on this, like, hey, I want to move on thing. It's like, hey, I want to survive and be relevant and be noticed and be recognized and, so anyways, but yeah, but I appreciate you saying that.
[01:03:45] Yeah, but you know what you hit on, though? Is that you want to be remembered. And that, perhaps, is the next phase. And that's legacy. Yeah. This has been such a joy. Thank you for being with us, Brendan. Yeah, well, thank you for letting me be here. And we'll have [01:04:00] to do this again, because I'm sure I'm going to have more, um, scenarios from the wild that we're going to need to talk about.
[01:04:05] We'll come up with a name for it. Yeah. And we'll come back on once it has a name and we can do it again. That's right. Thank you so much. Thanks, Stacey. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy.
[01:04:27] Investment values may fluctuate, and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Havener or Havener Capital Partners.
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