Episode 84: Meet Amy Volas–Founder of Avenue Talent Partners Startup Executive Recruiters For Hiring Sales Leaders

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If you’re always chasing investors, hires, or deals… you’re doing it wrong.

The most successful boutique founders don’t try to close everyone. They focus on alignment—and that’s exactly what Amy Volas is here to help you master.

As a top sales leader turned founder of Avenue Talent Partners, she helps startups hire the right sales leaders. Along the way, she’s seen the costly mistakes founders make—whether they’re hiring, fundraising, or scaling—and she’s here to help you avoid them

In this Episode, Amy and Stacy discuss: 

• Why trying to close everyone is the fastest way to burn out

• How the most successful founders and fund managers attract the right people (and repel the wrong ones)

• The hiring scorecard that will save you from expensive hiring mistakes

• Why gut feelings aren’t enough—and how to build a hiring process that actually works

• The mindset shift that will make raising capital and growing your firm a lot more sustainable

More about Amy Volas:

Amy Volas is the founder and CEO of Avenue Talent Partners, an executive recruiting firm and consultancy dedicated to helping founders and CEOs confidently hire Sales and Customer Success leaders or transform chaotic hiring processes into strategic advantages. With over 20 years of enterprise sales experience, Amy has closed more than $100 million in revenue, held leadership roles, started three companies, and achieved two successful exits with ZipRecruiter and Indeed.Over the past decade, Amy has partnered with founders and CEOs to hire hundreds of transformative leaders, earning her reputation as a trusted hiring expert. She is also an LP at Stage 2 Capital, a Techstars Mentor, a Strategic Advisor to several startups, and a speaker. Amy is writing her first book to help founders and CEOs navigate common hiring pitfalls.

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TRANSCRIPT

Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors. 

[00:00:00] Amy Volas: It's not about selling anything to anybody. It's about achieving alignment because when you are aligned, it sells itself. You're not selling, you're having business conversations, just like you would managing an investment, right? You have no idea what to do with somebody's money.

[00:00:17] If you don't find out what their goals are, how aggressive do they want to be? How conservative they do they want to be? Are they thinking about their life goals? Where in life are they? What is going on?

[00:00:26] Stacy Havener: Hey, my name is Stacy Havener. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys club, Wall Street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques. You could say against the odds.

[00:00:48] Yeah. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk [00:01:00] here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college, mixed with happy hour.

[00:01:13] Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the Billion Dollar Backstory Podcast.

[00:01:25] This is a special podcast episode because this guest is one of my dearest friends. This is a glimpse into my inner circle, the people on the end of the line when I phone a friend. Amy Volis is the founder of Avenue Talent Partners, an executive recruiting firm that specializes in startups and in sales.

[00:01:48] Which makes sense, because before she became the founder of her recruiting firm, Amy was an absolute stud of a salesperson. Today's episode is a masterclass in founder [00:02:00] led sales, something we hear often in tech and SaaS, but not so much in finance and investing. If you've wondered what the role of the founder is in capital raising, or how you know when it's time to hire, this episode is for you.

[00:02:17] Meet my friend. Amy, if you could see me right now, I am the biggest cheese on my face because I have my friend Amy Volus in the studio with us today. She is a total rock star and I am thrilled to bring our listeners in to today's conversation. Amy, thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:39] Amy Volas: I am teasing over here.

[00:02:42] We've talked a lot about this behind the scenes and so we're bringing it to life in front of the scenes and I love this. Thank you.

[00:02:47] Stacy Havener: Yes. Me too. So we have to start at the beginning. Um, and I want to go back to, I want to go back to your sales career. I want to go back to like, before [00:03:00] you were Amy Volis founder, how did this all start?

[00:03:03] Because there's a lot of magic pre Avenue talent partners that led up to that founding. A lot of magic.

[00:03:11] Amy Volas: Was it magic? I don't know. It was a lot of hard lessons learned. I'll say that. Um, you know, it's funny, I, Shared the story with other people before. So if anybody has heard this, I'm sorry in advance. Um, but I had never thought in a million years that I would ever end up in sales ever.

[00:03:32] And I had all of the same stigmas and stereotypes in my mind about it being gross, about people being slimy, about being pushy, about all this stuff that I try not to be in my life. And I thought that I would be, The female version of James Bond when I grew up, yeah, I study

[00:03:54] Stacy Havener: more, I don't know what that means.

[00:03:56] Amy Volas: So true story, you know, how [00:04:00] much my grandparents meant to me. And one of the ways that my grandfather and I bonded growing up. And one of the things that he showed me or turned me on to was James Bond, old school, Sean Connery. I mean, all of them, but Sean Connery, like

[00:04:17] Stacy Havener: Yes.

[00:04:18] Amy Volas: Um, Goldfinger specifically was where it started.

[00:04:21] Love this. And so, uh, yeah, and I just was like, wait, what is this? This is awesome. And so, um, the one show that my husband and I can always agree to watch, like we never agree. On anything to watch together. It's why we don't go to the movie theater together. Cause like it ends up being like this, this like three hour big debate.

[00:04:44] And then it's just like, fine, we're not going. Um, but the one thing is forensic files. So like I we've, I've always been super turned on by. Like the whodunit, what went down, why, what's [00:05:00] going on, uh, espionage, like all of that. And it's like James Bond made it regal. And my grandfather and I would watch these, Movies together to the point that then I corrupted my cousin.

[00:05:13] Who's like my little sister. She also is a double Oh seven fan. So it's gone through the generations. That being said, I studied criminal justice. I did not want to be a police officer. I did not want to be a lawyer. I do not want to be a politician. None of those things are anything that I wanted to do. I wanted to be James Bond.

[00:05:31] Well, then I found out in the real world that I'd probably be killed in about one second and that would not be me. So I then had this existential crisis at 21 years old of like, what, what am I going to do when I grow up? Who am I going to be? And this is before really like the internet and all these things.

[00:05:54] And so it was like, what am I going to do? And I remember feeling very confused [00:06:00] and very alone and very like, I, I don't know. And at that time, you did know, like it was expected of you to know people didn't take gap years. There wasn't like, this was not like the thing. Yeah. And so I felt sort of like a loser.

[00:06:17] And then what I realized was, well, wait a second. I was always fascinated by. Business and by my grandfather and how he did business and the conversations he was having and the fact that he could walk into a room, light it up. And it was like this beacon of light that people flock to. And I just found it really interesting how we would be at dinner and it was like, where's Waldo, but in this case, where's Bill Bird?

[00:06:43] It was like, and people would just know him, talk to him and it would be business, but it would be fun. And I just was always fascinated by like that people component. And then I realized, well, his son also was in business and my [00:07:00] father, who was his mentor, was also in business. Um, my aunt was in business, my uncle was in bus, like all these people around me, and it was interesting.

[00:07:09] I didn't realize, I just called it business. Mm-hmm . They were all in different shades of sales. Uh, my grandfather was a ceo, but you know, as a CEO and a founder, you are the best seller and you should be.

[00:07:23] Mm-hmm .

[00:07:24] Amy Volas: And so as I was going through this little baby midlife crisis as a, we won. And thinking that I was a loser and I had no idea of the direction of my life and I was out of school and back at home and I moved around a lot growing up, I didn't have, like, my friend group had changed and all these things.

[00:07:43] And I just felt like I don't know what I'm doing and I feel alone. What am I going to do? And so I started. Just thinking about things and then I went to like a temp agency and I remember thinking to myself This is interesting. These people are helping [00:08:00] people

[00:08:00] I

[00:08:03] Amy Volas: don't like these people like they're not they're they're here to help people but it this also feels icky Yeah, and so my first role Was being a tech recruiter.

[00:08:15] Stacy Havener: No

[00:08:15] Amy Volas: Yeah

[00:08:16] Stacy Havener: before you were in sales you were in recruiting. Okay I was we're coming full circle here.

[00:08:22] Amy Volas: Yeah, so I was a tech recruiter and this is like in the 90s And such a different thing. I have no idea what I was even doing. Like, truly, I don't even know why anybody would even hire me to try to vet or qualify anyone in technology.

[00:08:42] Like, what? But somehow I did it and I actually enjoyed it. Some of it. Well this company this was in today's world. It would be considered a startup. Mm hmm. We called them dot com

[00:08:56] Stacy Havener: Yeah, hey, I remember the dot coms. Come on,

[00:08:59] Amy Volas: you [00:09:00] know, and so this company I Loved this company. Oh founder was amazing and he was also an infectious dude that was amazing and fun and made work fun and I was in our satellite office.

[00:09:18] I was living in Chicago, which is where I'm from. And they were in Denver and everything was great until it wasn't. So then this really horrible thing called nine 11 happened. And this is where Sarbanes Oxley started coming out. All these things started happening amongst a major recession and the company that I worked for, we were focused on supporting telecommunications industry and.

[00:09:45] One of the biggest lessons I've learned that I carry with me today is we put the majority of our eggs in one basket

[00:09:51] Mm hmm

[00:09:52] Amy Volas: and like that the business It was like it disintegrated and to the point where it [00:10:00] was the CEO was trying to do whatever he could to try to rectify this and it was almost like too little too late and I remember going to Denver and they were trying to do some press and we had to go around with lipstick and Mugs and make it look like somebody had left for the day But they were working that they had been at their desk because they had this huge office space And they laid off all these people, but we needed to make it look like these people are here.

[00:10:24] Yeah. And so in trip, he took me into his office and I would have walked through fire for him. And he basically said to me, guess what? Uh, there's nothing to recruit for, as you know. And if you. I mean, I wish I could tell you my gateway into sales was this very calculated, smart thing to do.

[00:10:42] Stacy Havener: Yeah.

[00:10:43] Amy Volas: But he took me into his office and I was tickled with the role that I had, even though I had no idea what I was doing looking back on it now.

[00:10:49] And he said, here's, here's the situation. There's nothing for you to recruit for. We love you. We're going to have to go through more layoffs. We don't want to lose you. And here's [00:11:00] the situation. If you want to stay here, you're going to have to sell.

[00:11:04] Uh huh.

[00:11:05] Amy Volas: And. I wanted to stay there. I had no sales training, no curriculum, no onboarding, no enablement, no, you know, no operations, like all the words that we use today, and that was okay because I cared about the company.

[00:11:20] I knew that none of that stuff would be available, and I figured, well, what the heck? And long story long, that started my sales career. That was enterprise sales. Uh, I did not have success there because it was too little too late, but I remember the building that they were in was across the street from the Sears Tower.

[00:11:43] And I joke with people where I tell them it's the White Castle headquarters. It's not, I don't know whose headquarters it is, but it's the White Castle that's on top of it. Yeah. And I would sit on the grassy knoll with, Whatever sales book, whatever book I could get. And I just remember [00:12:00] highlighting and dog earring and making notes and trying out things and trying different vernacular and different phrases and different tactics.

[00:12:06] Some of it was horrible. Some of it was okay and therein lies the foundation and I never looked back because I did go through many rounds of layoffs there and ultimately the company couldn't survive what was happening and it folded and then that led me to a different company called Jacobson and there was a gentleman named Darren and I, they were selling services to Managed care companies in the insurance industry.

[00:12:39] Boring is all get out, but we're still in a recession. I needed a job. My neighbor introduced me to the company that she worked there. And it was a Guinea pig moment. And Darren was like, look, I was here. The, the founder and the father. The two brothers are co CEOs are taking over. I was a consultant. [00:13:00] He had a, uh, um, I think he was with Deloitte.

[00:13:04] Uh, so consulting background, they hired him as a consultant. Then they hired him full time to do this. They had a sneaking suspicion that there was this opportunity with sort of a competitor. That there was a bigger opportunity to do that, but they needed somebody to kind of quantify and qualify the opportunity.

[00:13:21] And I remember them sitting across from me saying, we don't know if this is going to work or not. You'd be a Guinea pig. Good luck. And some of the best things about me came from working with Darren and working for Darren. And. He changed my life and he, anything that really makes me or made me really good at discovery, at not being anything that I thought was gross or cringeworthy, it was because he led by example and we went in to understand and we went in to genuinely help and we weren't just there to sell and [00:14:00] he, he really Reinforce that and did not push me to do things that were out of integrity or out of character and it took me a long time to sell my first deal.

[00:14:11] He believed in me. I was about to quit. I wasn't. I took a big pay cut. I wasn't making the same money. And he was like, you're almost there. Just like hang tight. And he also had never been in sales. He wasn't a sales leader. And so he approached it like it like a management consultant. And my, oh, my, did that work really well because about a month after that, I sold the biggest deal in the company's history.

[00:14:37] It was a, multi seven year or seven figure, excuse me, deal. And he's like, I told you. And the rest is history. There were literally, that's how I got into enterprise sales. So

[00:14:51] Stacy Havener: no, I love it because also it's going to come back around, which I think is important for people to understand. Like it doesn't all make sense looking [00:15:00] forward, but when you look back.

[00:15:02] My gosh, there are so many like connectivity points that you're like, if that hadn't happened, you know, four steps down the line wouldn't have happened. And so it does all make sense. So how long were you doing sales and you were crushing it? I mean, you just mentioned one deal, but like it went on, you continued to have sales success.

[00:15:23] How many years was, was your sort of quote sales career, would you say?

[00:15:27] Amy Volas: I mean, I'm still in sales, so I don't feel like this is

[00:15:29] Stacy Havener: where I want to go. But technically before you were a founder,

[00:15:34] Amy Volas: well, technically before I was, I've been a founder in three different ways. I started later in 2008, a company with Darren.

[00:15:42] We, we got the, Oh, that's right. I forgot that. Okay. Yep. And so I took a hiatus from sales to do that with him, but to be the sales side of the business. Yeah. And then 2008, so, you know, who would have thought in the summer of 2008, we would go into a recession. Not me. And, um, we were, [00:16:00] I've always been bootstrapped and he and I were 50 50 partners and, uh, we went, we were back into the industry that we came from, which was managed care.

[00:16:08] And if you remember anything about 2008, one of the hottest topics was what was going to happen in healthcare and let alone all the other things. What my multiple seven figure pipeline that was this close from closing looked like vanished in thin air and was Healthcare companies that are government regulated or have a heavy influence by the government regulation say we're very conservative.

[00:16:33] They already are conservative. And they basically were like, guess what? We love you. We love that you two are back together and talk to me in about two and a half years.

[00:16:42] Stacy Havener: Every founder is cringing because two and a half years in founder land is like basically a lifetime. Like your company's probably not there, right?

[00:16:52] I mean, that's so long. Yeah, totally. So, so how did you end up [00:17:00] switching, switching from, I mean, and I want to talk about founder led sales. So that's ultimately where we're going after this. But what was the point when you decided that you were going to pivot to Avenue Talent Partner?

[00:17:11] Amy Volas: So to not be confusing and hopefully you'll chop up some of this cause these are really long stories, but to not be confusing to answer your original question, I.

[00:17:20] I left sales temporarily.

[00:17:23] Mm-hmm .

[00:17:23] Amy Volas: In 2008 to start that with Darren and then I, I didn't, I was at Yahoo.

[00:17:28] Mm-hmm .

[00:17:29] Amy Volas: sales and, um. I ended up coming back to Yahoo during a recession when they were on a hearing freeze, the lesson here for anybody is never leave on a horrible note, always leave it better than when you came into it.

[00:17:45] And I find that people tend to remember not all the work that you did, but how you left something. And that was a great lesson for me. And so they welcomed me back. And so I had that and it's weird because as [00:18:00] much as I was grateful. I was embarrassed and mortified to go back. And at the same time, I remember thinking as much as it was hard and.

[00:18:09] There's so much hard that was happening at that time, but as much as it was hard. I remember thinking like so this business thing I'll do this again.

[00:18:16] Ah

[00:18:17] Amy Volas: And I come from a long line of business folk that were mostly entrepreneurs And so I think I was bitten by that bug I think it starts with my grandfather and that thread just kind of pulls through to me and I knew it But I knew I needed to learn and so from Yahoo I ended up getting into tech and so I sold products and services and this has a lot to do with my success when I first started selling back in the day there wasn't this thing that it looks like today where there are different parts of sales where it's like you have somebody that appointment sets for you and you have somebody that does your proposals for you and you have some, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:18:55] I had to get my own business, I had to do my own meetings, make my own meetings, oh, and by the way, I had to [00:19:00] keep my own business and I had to expand it, too. Yeah,

[00:19:03] Stacy Havener: and update your CRM.

[00:19:05] Amy Volas: Oh, all of it. All of it, all of it, all of it. And, you know, the funny thing is, I'm so grateful because it gave me a master class and a PhD in how business works, how customers think, because if you can't open a conversation, how in the world can you close one and vice versa?

[00:19:22] So long story, long, long, long, long. I knew it was going to happen. I, along the way, I fell into leadership. I demoted myself because I. Was horrendous as a first time sales leader without any training. And then I knew I wanted to get back into it. That happened later. So all of this to say I've sold 100 million in revenue on my own without any channel or anything.

[00:19:45] I'm going to try to make this really short and sweet and to the point. My entire career selling or anything has always been about people, and that's why I got into that tech recruiting role. That's why I've taken these chances that I've [00:20:00] taken is I am fascinated. I'm turned on by the human element by why people do what they do by why they don't do what they do by how they recover when they shouldn't be doing what they are doing.

[00:20:15] And while I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, I, and I'll never create a company that becomes a verb. I care deeply about my ecosystem and I've been in it for a long time. And one of my superpowers is I listen to people and I start identifying patterns and themes. And what I realized is going from the services based businesses that I was a part of all of that had to do with workforce planning and people and helping people solve really big problems through people.

[00:20:47] And then when I got into Yahoo, I was part of the hot jobs property. And I re and that was that was an HR tech piece to help companies figure out how to hire [00:21:00] and from there. That's when I got into startups. One of the executives from hot jobs went over to this little baby startup called Indeed, and they recruited me over to help them start.

[00:21:11] Their enterprise sales function, and then I got bitten by the startup bug, and I've had two exits, one IPO, one acquisition, very different lessons, and as I was in HR tech, and I was working with customers, and I was thinking about working with founders that I was working with, and I was thinking about building teams and all these things.

[00:21:27] There was a common theme amongst all of it, and it still happens to this day. People do not have a problem meeting people. They don't have a problem seeing people, especially with the Internet. I can see everybody. We all can, but here's where the problem is. I have a really hard time finding the right person for me.

[00:21:47] Oh, and by the way, how in the world do I keep them once I have them? And those have been problems that fortune 10 companies that I've worked with have dealt with all the way to the precede company that I've worked with. I mean, [00:22:00] it runs the gamut. It doesn't matter who you are, where you are, how big you are, what it is that you do.

[00:22:04] These are problems. And so in 2015 I was with, um, another startup that I had an exit with called zip recruiter. Uh, brought on there to, um, build out an enterprise sales function, had lots of success there. And here's the, what I learned about myself. I love to roll up the sleeves, my fingers dirty. And I like in the like thick of the soup of the like thickest split P trying to find the one piece of ham in the soup.

[00:22:36] I like, I like building something from nothing. And so I go to these early stage companies and I build something significant and then here's what happens. You get funding or things change and you grow. And that next sort of big stage is not me. That's why I left Yahoo. I had a great sales career at Yahoo, but I'm not a big company gal.

[00:22:58] I don't love the red taping. Mm

[00:22:59] [00:23:00] hmm.

[00:23:00] Amy Volas: Uses about the process that ultimately. More times than not, it has nothing to do with your customer. And by the way, the customer writes the check and I believe in that. And so my husband and Stacey, you and I've talked a lot about this behind the scenes is my biggest supporter.

[00:23:15] And also my biggest ass kicker, not literally people he's like, he will push me gently and lovingly into realizing that it's time to take some leaps or it's time to take some risks. And he had said to me at the time, because. Zip had received a big round of funding, lots of changes with that big round of funding and lots of changes for me and my role.

[00:23:43] And he was like, I have seen you go through this and it happens usually about the two and a half year mark where you've done what you're doing. They're thrilled, but then these big changes happen that are no longer what you want to be doing. And it's time to get off the hamster wheel and it's time for you to do this again.

[00:23:58] And he's like, I don't care what you do. [00:24:00] I'm incorporating. You have one month to figure out what the name of your company is going to be. I'm like, I don't even know what my company is like, what you can do this. And I was like, I had no idea. And I remember saying like, I mean, I know all about the recruiting industry.

[00:24:13] It's where my whole network is, but it is so cringeworthy. I don't want to do recruiting. And then he started asking me questions about it. And it's like, why, and why don't you like it? And you have all this knowledge, what's the deal. And then it dawned on me, my own little baby pattern and theme. If you don't want to join them and you don't like what's being said or done, the only thing that you can do is something about it to change it.

[00:24:37] And voila. So I started thinking about that and I was like, well, what, how do I name the company when I don't know what exactly it's going to be? And I just thought about paths and these and these sliding door moments where you either walk through it or you don't, depending on what you do and the intersection of the path of the decision that you make.

[00:24:57] And so Avenue Talent Partners, [00:25:00] no idea what I was going to do with that was incorporated. About six months before I left ZipRecruiter. And the day that I left ZipRecruiter is the day that I started this. And that was in October of 2015.

[00:25:11] Stacy Havener: Oh my gosh. What a fantastic story. You are very James Bond ish too.

[00:25:17] Now that I think about it. Yeah, you are. You're very, you're all the things. You're very double 07. I mean, it's such a fantastic story. I mean, thank you for sharing that. And I think what I want to, I mean, there's so much to unpack too. I want to do a little bit about. Sales if we can, I want to do some like go back to your sales days, which I know is very integral into how you help founders and CEOs now with their hiring of sales and customers, customers, success leaders, but so I want to do a little of that.

[00:25:48] And then I also I want to go to the hiring because I think both of those people, both of those functions are critical to the people who are listening. So [00:26:00] What we know Amy's background is in tech and that's who she serves now. But the lessons, every time I talk with you, I'm like, gosh, the lessons are so applicable across all industries.

[00:26:11] And our listeners in the investment space need to hear this. So I want to talk a little bit about founder led sales, and you've talked about it in different ways, you yourself as a founder, but also you've seen this play out when you were in sales and with clients that you help. And so I think there's a perception in the investment space for a lot of fund managers that when they start their firm, their craft is investing.

[00:26:42] And now they've started their own shop. Their craft is still investing and period at the end. And what we're trying to. Teach them is that no, once you put the entrepreneur hat on and you have a lot of a lot of other jobs now, but one of the [00:27:00] most important jobs is sales. And this is like a whole new thing for them.

[00:27:06] So can you just talk like what is founder led sales mean and why is it important?

[00:27:11] Amy Volas: So what it means is you as the founder, when you are starting something, how that company ultimately grows or doesn't, who you do business with, why you're doing business with them, where you need to spend your time knowing that.

[00:27:31] This particular part of the market is good for us. This is, this is my niche within the market, or this is who I serve in this market. I find that oftentimes. When we start a company, not only is it like an incredibly brave, scary thing to do, it's a big risk, but it's a big hypothesis. It's a big bet and founder led selling.

[00:27:57] And in my opinion, the way that I define it, [00:28:00] yes, I can tell you. You as the founder or the CEO or the person that started the company, the partner, whatever you want to say, this is your baby and it's up to you to do the selling to validate it to get the thing off the ground. That's like the like, that's like the, yes, definition, the, the Amy Webster's definition of of the term.

[00:28:21] But the reason why, if you don't know, Right like if you don't figure it out for yourself and i get it especially in the world that you're talking about right so if i my superpowers investing. I don't want to deal with this, right? Yeah. If all of a sudden I started a company and I had to write some software code to do that or what I'd have to figure out how, and quite frankly, that freaks me the thought of that.

[00:28:53] I've got sweaty palms. No, thank you. And so when we feel like that, where it's. What we don't want to [00:29:00] do what we don't like to do what we don't know how to do The very first inclination is get it off my plate like get it get it get it away And so founder led selling is You are starting this company And it is up to you to quantify, qualify, validate, negate, test, experiment, whatever it is that you're bringing to the market, that is your role.

[00:29:24] And when you get some repeatability, and I saw on your credenza behind you, uh, the bulk traction, when you get traction, not what you think you might have or what you read, what traction could look like, but when you actually validate and it starts to become repeatable. And you have raving fan customers and people that are responding people to you, and this is starting to really take shape.

[00:29:49] Then I believe in going from founder led. So it's my job

[00:29:53] to.

[00:29:55] Amy Volas: Not where they think I think they think I'm going to go [00:30:00] founder led to founder managed. So maybe now it's time.

[00:30:05] Stacy Havener: Okay. This is a new term. Okay. Wait one founder led sales question for you. So if I'm listening to this and I'm getting the sweaty palms because I am, you know, a fund manager and I don't want to do sales.

[00:30:18] And now Stacy's told me I need to, and now Amy's telling me I need to, and I'm like, starting to think I need to, do you have any advice? Like, I think the, and look, I mean, the hardest part for them, I think is, is the idea that they need to close business. And I think if we could get them to let go, if we could get the founders to let go of the fact that like, you're going to have a meeting and the first thing you need to do is close a deal, that is so much pressure because.

[00:30:47] The founders that I've seen do this. Well, they're not going in there with the clothes in their mind. They're going in there with curiosity and passion and exploration of what, you know, [00:31:00] why they're building this thing and what's different about it. And it's really all of that. So how do we help founders understand that it's not like go for the.

[00:31:08] Go for the close and meeting one.

[00:31:10] Amy Volas: It's just a little baby mindset change. So one, you know, I think about like, and also if we're talking about investing, you're asking me for some money, like you're asking my money. And one of the things that makes my husband and I cringe when we meet. When, when we've interviewed before we started, it was managing our money.

[00:31:30] If it was like a, a hard close, no, nope. And so I just think like, just pause for a second. How do you like to do business? You know, like what delights you and nine and a half times out of 10 when I talk to people, it's pretty universal. So here's the pattern and the theme. When I feel good about writing a check.

[00:31:50] And I'm leaning into something new. I don't care what you're selling. It could be a product or service, financial service. I don't care.

[00:31:57] This is

[00:31:57] Amy Volas: human psychology. It's because [00:32:00] I feel seen, I feel heard, I feel understood, I feel valued, I feel validated, and I feel remembered.

[00:32:09] Stacy Havener: Oh, I love the last one so much.

[00:32:12] Yes, please keep going. Oh, that's good.

[00:32:14] Amy Volas: And so that, that last one. Was like an awakening through my book writing process, um, about a month and a half ago. So this is like a new, but it's true when you think about it. And so like the mindset shift is just like an investing, just like in selling, just like in hiring.

[00:32:32] These are all common things. You know what? Also just like in dating, these are all very synonymous things. If I went on a date with somebody and the very first thing that they did was try to hard sell me, that's called no.

[00:32:48] Stacy Havener: That's called no.

[00:32:51] Amy Volas: That's called no. Unless I tell you that that's what I want, that's called no. That's called zero. And so, you know, these same [00:33:00] things exist everywhere else. And here's the difference. Here's your baby mindset change. When you are selling anything to anybody, when somebody is giving their money to you in your fund, when somebody is agreeing to go on the next date with you, when somebody agrees to marry you, when somebody agrees to work for you.

[00:33:20] And this is the problem that I work really hard to solve every day in my business. And I'm trying to deprogram really crappy advice. Your job is to not sell each other. Like my job is not to show up when I want you to marry me every single time, full makeup, maybe a bra that like lifts the girls up a little bit more than they need to be.

[00:33:44] I got a girdle sucking it all in heels. Like my job is not to do that because guess what? If I do that and then we get married. And all of a sudden, you know, that you see me the next day and it's like, what, what is [00:34:00] this? And I know I sound superficial, but

[00:34:02] Stacy Havener: it's a great,

[00:34:04] Amy Volas: you know, let's say we didn't talk about the kids conversation, getting married by the way, I don't have kids.

[00:34:10] And let's say I didn't talk about that with my husband and now all of a sudden we're married and he's like, yeah, it's time to have some kids. I'm like, I don't want kids. Here's the name of the game. And I know y'all are like, just get to the point, Amy, this context is going to help you. I promise, because here's the mindset mindset shift.

[00:34:29] It's not about selling anything to anybody. It's about achieving alignment because when you are aligned, it sells itself. And so at the end of the day, You're not selling, you're having business conversations, just like you would managing an investment, right? You have no idea what to do with somebody's money.

[00:34:49] If you don't find out what their goals are, how aggressive do they want to be? How conservative they do they want to be? Are they thinking about their life goals? Where in life are they? What is going on? And that's not just [00:35:00] individuals. That's also companies.

[00:35:01] Stacy Havener: Yeah.

[00:35:02] Amy Volas: Right.

[00:35:02] Stacy Havener: I love

[00:35:03] Amy Volas: that. You can't do your job well.

[00:35:06] You can't do a marriage well. You can't do hiring well if you are just focused on selling the other person on what you think that they should do. What's about alignment?

[00:35:16] Stacy Havener: Yes, alignment is the word of the day here in the Billion Dollar Backstory studio. And also, let me say, fabulous analogy, I was literally crying.

[00:35:27] What I think is really interesting about that word alignment is if you embrace the word of the day, which is really like, Bigger than the day, right? It's the mindset shift. It's the word that you're embracing. Then it also stands true that not every person you meet is one of the ones. Right? Because if you're there exploring for alignment, it's much different than if you're trying to close every single person you meet, whether that's a client or a hire or whatever.

[00:35:56] And that's a totally different way of thinking. [00:36:00] Like everybody's not for me. I am not for everybody. And this conversation is the exploration of finding the alignment with the right person at the right time. Right? Am I right?

[00:36:15] Amy Volas: Not only are you right, but I mean, I'm going to contain myself. I have a lot to say about that, but

[00:36:24] and I promise everybody can get to a point. So I'll show you how in just a second, but you know, all fun aside, the point to that, to really drive it home is. If you don't know who is right for you and you're just going after your market, the riches are in the niches.

[00:36:43] Stacy Havener: Yes.

[00:36:43] Amy Volas: When I am clear about who I best serve, why, what my one thing is for them that they absolutely benefit from, not what I think, but what I validated.

[00:36:56] This is why founder led selling is so important. And I start [00:37:00] hearing the The patterns and the themes and wow. Okay. So there's a really big opportunity with this profile of person doing this kind of business That's my jam Then it makes it incredibly easy to see That we are aligned and it makes it incredibly easy to see when something's off and it's okay I'm, not for everybody And I'm okay with it.

[00:37:23] Yes. But what's not okay is if I don't know, because when I'm clear, everything, everyone else around me is as well. When I'm murky, how, if I don't know, how in the world do you know? And then it's just a risk. And then I find that if we're doing that, and by the way, let me just be clear. You can do the opposite of this and you can certainly get a lot of money And I i'm going to go to vegas and bet on this all day long because i've proven it out for almost 30 years That business will not stay with you.

[00:37:55] Stacy Havener: That's the problem and

[00:37:56] Amy Volas: what is the cost of chasing new? versus [00:38:00] doubling down On those that should be with you and they grow with you and they refer others like them to you And you double down on that big differences

[00:38:10] Stacy Havener: huge differences And I would guess also applies to hiring right because you could close somebody And if it's not the right person And they leave Now you've got yourself a nice You know, I was gonna say the word shit I don't know if you can say shit on podcasts, but you got yourself in a shit.

[00:38:30] You got a shit sandwich now Big time.

[00:38:33] Amy Volas: Yeah. And that is the number one driver of my business is people have mishired. And when they mishire their executive sales or customer success leader, so sales or post sales,

[00:38:47] it

[00:38:49] Amy Volas: is anywhere depending on when you catch it. And usually people wait too long because it's uncomfortable.

[00:38:54] It is anywhere on the conservative side. The lowest I've seen it [00:39:00] be. It's like a million bucks. The most I've seen is 14 million in founder equity and 35 million as a business. So, you know, it's kind of a big deal, but this is the whole thing of like, choose your heart, right? Hard now painting intentional or harder later.

[00:39:22] And what I find about this is we're in this world where if it's uncomfortable for me, I'm going to look for the shiniest object that, that, uh, justifies why I'm probably not choosing the right lane. And it's all rooted, not all, I'm not going to speak in an absolute. It's mostly rooted in short termism.

[00:39:47] Like this feels good. This will pay off right now. I'll figure it out later. It's kind of like if I hire you right now and we feel good about this and you're telling me what I want to hear and this sounds good and this is exactly what I need. We'll figure it [00:40:00] out together later. It's kind of like that wedding analogy.

[00:40:03] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I know. This is so good. I want, let's bridge. So you, we, the founders are now saying, got it. This is okay. I know I have to do founder led sales. Stacy and Amy have convinced me we're in. How do they know when it's time to transition to founder managed?

[00:40:25] Amy Volas: So I have this little trick that I do because oftentimes people will say, I think it's time.

[00:40:30] Stacy Havener: Yeah.

[00:40:30] Amy Volas: Like, well, what are your signals? What's going on? And most of the time it's a feeling it's not quantified or qualified. So if you start feeling like, Oh, it's time. I need you to slow down and ask yourself, why do I feel like it's time what's actually happening in the business? And then there's this test.

[00:40:49] Test is this. If I step away for a half a day, what breaks if I step away for a full day, what breaks and so on and so forth. [00:41:00] I also have this, um, theme that works really, really well in the form of a journal. That will help you understand exactly who you need to hire for what you need to hire for what you need to stop doing what you need to continue to do what your zone of excellence is and it helps you write excellent job descriptions to journal exercise and all it takes.

[00:41:25] Is 5 to 10 minutes of your time every day and what you have to do is you have to take out pen and paper. I mean, I don't care if you do it digitally or whatever. I'm a pen and paper kind of gal. That's just my role. And you ask yourself a series of questions. And the first question is, I ask it in the morning starts in the morning.

[00:41:46] What is it that I want to accomplish today? And as a founder and ceo, it's going to run the gamut across a lot of different buckets, and that is totally normal. So I write that down and then I go on my merry [00:42:00] way and, um, by the way, this journal is next to my bed. It is not anything else that can distract me.

[00:42:08] And why I like to write things down is I cannot be distracted. I can't focus on anything else because when you're writing, you can only do that. So it's really cerebral. It's, it's for you by you to you, because here's the thing. I might see the answer for you, but you know the answer better than anybody else because you're living this every day.

[00:42:27] So, um, and I don't have all the context. So then you come back and there's a series of additional questions and these questions and it's not like it's dear diary where it's like, here we meet today. I wanted to be Steve jobs. Like it's not that we're like, what is it that you want to accomplish? And then you come back and it's like, well.

[00:42:49] What did I get done? What kicked my ass? That is one of my questions. What did I leave behind and the leave behind? Oh, [00:43:00] leave behind. It's the last question. The other question is what am I really proud of? Like what filled? Oh

[00:43:05] Stacy Havener: yeah. That's so good. Yeah.

[00:43:07] Amy Volas: Like what brought energy? Good, good energy. Right. But the last question always is what did I leave behind?

[00:43:14] Now, here's the trick, you're going to be tempted because you're going to start feeling like I'm writing the same thing down all the time. You are not allowed to look back the day before and you have to do this for at least two weeks and then after two weeks, you can take out your highlighter or you can put it through chat GPT or whatever it is that you want to do and say, what are my themes?

[00:43:34] And here's where you start hearing things after a couple of weeks. I keep leaving this same thing behind. Why do I hate it? Am I bad at it? Am I trying to do it? Am I doing it? What is the thing? You might think it's sales. It actually might be you need some marketing support. Maybe you need a contractor Maybe you need there are lots of different ways [00:44:00] to get help beyond just full on hiring for something This is when you understand actually I don't want to hire for this at all.

[00:44:08] We just should stop doing this as a business. I hate it. Everybody hates it. I can't delegate it. I don't want to hire for it. I'm not going to create budget for it. Stop doing it. It has been the most powerful mirror of clarity and wisdom for me by me to me about needs where I've made the best tires wherever in the best job descriptions and all the sudden you do that and I do it every day and then I plug in the information once a month that's when I do my look back into a spreadsheet and then at the end of the year.

[00:44:41] I look at how it's aggregated and that is how you know when it's time

[00:44:47] Stacy Havener: because what tells you it's time you keep writing down the things that get left behind are like sales things and then you know, okay, I'm not doing it anymore or I don't have the bandwidth to do it anymore.

[00:44:59] Amy Volas: The things that [00:45:00] let's get left behind, no, don't, don't look for that as a signal cause you're going to tell yourself the wrong story and be like, I can't do this.

[00:45:05] Okay. I'm going to get rid of sales. Yeah. Yeah. It's. I am already spending so much time on sales calls and all these other things. I can't take a new sales call for three weeks because I'm booked things like that can't be booked. Like you can't be like, Oh, I'm booked with, um, going to the gym in the morning and I'm booked with all the things that you want to do.

[00:45:26] I'm talking about, you are jam packed already with the thing that is serving you well. Also what are the other symptoms in the business? Right? Like, do you have customers? Do you have customers that are beyond your friendlies, meaning your friends and family referring it to you? Yeah. Were you able to, on more than one occasion, multiple times, go from soup to nuts, finding your own deal to closing it?

[00:45:52] Because here's the thing, this is why I want you to do founder-led sales. How in the world there are 50 different, I'm writing a book [00:46:00] about this. There are 50 different shades of gray when it comes to sales, and I think people say like, I don't wanna do this, so I need to hire for it. What's your shade of gray though?

[00:46:08] And then people look at me like, what? I just had a conversation with a founder recently. And he's like, I can tell you, um, he, he had a really weird title. And I was like, you know, that title can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. It was, I need to hire. A VP of growth. What are we growing there? Yeah.

[00:46:29] Growth could be marketing growth, could be sales growth, could be product. Like it could be a lot of things. And I was like, so how are you thinking about it? He's like, you know, I'm not really sure. I know what I don't want. How in the world can you hire if you don't know what you do want or what success looks like.

[00:46:45] And so that's the thing here is this whole exercise is illuminating. And what you come away with is. Where is it that I really need help? And what is it? And if I have not made it repeatable, if I don't, [00:47:00] if I'm not focused and dialed into the work that it takes to do this well, because I have found out firsthand, you will be a horrible leader.

[00:47:10] You will be a horrible. Um, hiring authority because you're now making it on a guess, right? So if I now have an interpretation of what I think sales should be, but I haven't validated it all, how am I going to lead the person? How am I going to inspire them, manage them, motivate them, coach them, mentor them.

[00:47:30] And then on the flip side, how in the world am I going to be able to spot what good looks like? And I think a lot of what happens with hiring is people are like, well, you know what? Stacy is really smart. And Stacy has a huge network and Stacy owes me a favor. So I'm going to ask Stacy, Hey, Stacy, who do you know in sales?

[00:47:45] And Stacy's going to want to help you. And she's going to say, you know what? I know like these 10 people, they're really good. But what if those 10 people want to work at JP Morgan chase?

[00:47:55] Stacy Havener: That's right. This was going to be my one of my questions. Keep, this is so good. [00:48:00] Keep going. This is big.

[00:48:01] Amy Volas: So, JPMorgan Chase, anybody that works there, right?

[00:48:06] And I've never worked at JPMorgan Chase, but let's just say JPMorgan Chase is like my equivalent of Yahoo. I have budget. I had brand record. I had resources. I had process already figured out for me and the process behind the process for the process to the process about the process. And it's not that that work is bad at JP Morgan Chase or Yahoo.

[00:48:27] It's different. And I've Not everybody is ambidextrous. In fact, most people aren't. And so, if all of a sudden, I'm not JPMorgan Chase, I want to be JPMorgan Chase when I grow up, but that's going to take me 50 years. So if all of a sudden I want to be JPMorgan Chase, and I'm really, like, An amoeba.

[00:48:49] Stacy Havener: Yeah, you're like scrapping over here, yeah.

[00:48:53] Amy Volas: You can't even fathom the thought of writing a check for an enablement person, [00:49:00] an operations person, a trainer, a this, a that, the other thing. That person is going to have to be resilient in a different way than they've ever been. So if Stacy then introduces you to 10 people from JP Morgan Chase and they are powerhouse people, but they have never done the work to bring in business at your level.

[00:49:20] And that work is different. Sales is not a universal term. Yes. It means that you sell something to someone, but to be able to do that. Requires a very different muscle at different stages. This is where the shades of gray come into play on. By the way, let's say you don't have a post sales function and you want this person to do what I did when I grew up, by the way, most people aren't taught to do that these days.

[00:49:42] So that becomes a needle in the haystack. So are you clear on what that work actually is? Are you just like, yeah, you know what? I want you to be gritty. I want you to have gumption. I want you to be a hard worker. I want you to be adaptable. I want you to be a Swiss army knife. These are all things that I hear.

[00:49:58] And then I am [00:50:00] interviewing with him like, well, what does a Swiss army knife look for? Like for you? Well, you know, we we're early on this that's part of being at this stage. You just figure it out Well, if you don't know and you can't tell me then how can you tell me how I will be successful? Oh,

[00:50:21] Stacy Havener: this is so big And, and it's funny, I chose that word right there because I think this is also a challenge across industry because I've heard you talk about it in tech and I see it on the investing side, which is when we're ready to hire. We get sort of stars in our eyes about people with the golden Rolodex that worked at the big firm that of who we want to be one day, and we don't realize that if that person hasn't sold where we are now.

[00:50:56] We could be in for a world of hurt. We could be in for a world of [00:51:00] hurt. I have made this mistake myself. I know Amy, you have seen it so many times and you've made it. Yeah. It's, and then afterwards you're like, how did I just, what was I thinking? I even made it a second time. I'm like, dude, you're a glutton for punishment.

[00:51:14] You can't get, you can't get out of your own way on this, but it's so true. It's just a different skill set.

[00:51:20] Amy Volas: It is. And when you get to the complexity, Of skills like sales. It's part art. It's part science. The art part makes it really hard to be able to spot true confidence, not just shiny object talking.

[00:51:36] That's where it becomes really tricky. And you know, for whatever it's worth, I agree with you. This is not just well, Amy's in tech, so it's just for that or no, made the parallels over to the investment side. Let's go back to my HR tech career where I've had these conversations for three decades. This is also your fortune 10 company.

[00:51:55] This is also international companies. This is like, this is, [00:52:00] this is a symptom of generation after generation, after generation of bad advice about what it takes to hire. Well, specifically in sales.

[00:52:14] Stacy Havener: Mm hmm. So one of the things I've heard you talk about and I love and you've even coached me on is this idea of having a scorecard, like a hiring scorecard.

[00:52:25] And so can you talk about why that's important when you, when you decide that, okay, I'm going to do like why and why and how do you even think about building something like,

[00:52:37] Amy Volas: well, the scorecard is, you know, came from one of the worst decisions I ever made in my career. Changes were happening. Nothing had even changed in my world, but it was just the concept of changing.

[00:52:46] It freaked me out and I took a call from a recruiter, really slick snake sales, oil sales. Uh, yeah. [00:53:00] And I got seduced by the shiniest of objects. That's called money and the possibility of what it could be. And I remember they flew me down to their office and. I remember going there and being like, I don't like these people, but I don't have to worry about them because I'm in Chicago and they're where they are many states away from me.

[00:53:21] And I really like the guy that I report to. Well, I didn't know that the guy that I reported to also knew the guy that was recruiting me from the recruiting firm for years. And this isn't a public company. I didn't have this information. This is before LinkedIn really had the capability to look at, like, how many people have turned and what's going on.

[00:53:40] And even that's, even that's not foolproof today because. As soon as somebody leaves, I find that they change and rewrite their history. But that being said, I took the job and on the very, and I took the job and left a really good one and I did it because I was afraid. And I called my husband on day one bawling, and I'm like, what did I [00:54:00] just know?

[00:54:01] And so I don't like making the same mistakes over and over again. I have repeated some of the same mistakes. Uh, this was one that I did not want to repeat. And so I did a bunch of research of like, how do I get out of my own way? How do I, because I knew deep down inside, like something was off, but I just turned that voice off and they were sending me Magnum bottles of my favorite champagne and like all the money.

[00:54:26] And by the way, they gave me a bunch of money to come over and I was like, okay, so like this is going to be great. Um, yeah, not great. Not great at all. Miserable. And truly it was like, I don't want to do this again. And then I thought about, well, wait a second. I've actually made this mistake when I've hired people.

[00:54:47] And then I thought about it, well, I see all my customers making this mistake too. Oh wait. And you know, the technical founders that I work with, they're making the same mistake too. I'm like, wait, this is a problem. And [00:55:00] so I did all this research. I didn't create the concept of a scorecard. It's been around since I don't know when, but I have my own take on it.

[00:55:07] And here's the thing. I find that most hiring decisions. I can't tell you how many people I talk to every week that tell me I'll know what good looks like when I see it, or they tell me my gut will tell me I've got, or they'll tell me my board member, my advisor, my colleagues, Stacy, they're referring people to me and they know what good looks like.

[00:55:37] And there are a few things to unpack their best. For somebody else does not mean best for me. And even if we worked together before things change. Um, so that's, that's one part of the puzzle. The other part is. Your gut feeling is a powerful signal, and I'm not saying [00:56:00] ignore it, and maybe it's right, maybe it's not, maybe it's riddled in bias, maybe it's riddled in assumption, maybe there are lots of maybes there, but it is a powerful signal, and one that is a huge indicator to pause, and figure out what's going on, this is my James Bond coming through, let's take a pause, like I'm not gonna shoot the person, I need to figure out, If this is even my target, this is the bad guy or the good guy or whatever, or you know, the Bond girl.

[00:56:30] I don't know, but I don't know who it is coming through. But here's the thing. I find that without a scorecard, people wing it. The process starts to change. You start to change who you think that looks like, because all of a sudden you talk to this person, they sound really good. And then you talk to this next person, they sound really good.

[00:56:50] And now you've spent all this time with all these people and you don't really, really know what good looks like. So the scorecard is meant to take all the emotion out of the [00:57:00] process. And hold yourself and your hiring committee accountable to, before we even think about starting a hiring process, we need to get really clear on what is our success criteria.

[00:57:12] What does that actually look like? What are our must haves? What's, why are they our must haves? What won't work within these must haves? And then you get that done on paper and that's what you use because if all of a sudden I've got eight categories and by the way, you should have no more, no more than 10 max, I like a five to eight number for a scorecard category because you start seeing themes bleed into each other.

[00:57:36] And if I have too many things, it's kind of like writing software. If I have too many and statements. I have really gnarly code that's not going to do anything. I need some or statement in there, but if all of a sudden all my and statements start being the same thing, it's not going to give me what I need.

[00:57:56] So, um, I start looking at the patterns [00:58:00] and the themes. It's like, oh, no, you're actually talking about cross functional collaboration. So let's put that into The executive category, right? Like, so you got to think about some of this stuff and really what it's meant to do is give you a really honest reflection of I'm clear on what this role is.

[00:58:18] I'm clear on what it takes to do well in this role. I'm clear on what won't work for this role, and I'm clear on how to establish success metrics for this role. And I'm going to use this To measure any person that comes my way in the same exact consistent, cohesive way, instead of trying to use the process to validate what it looks like.

[00:58:39] I know what it is up front and now I'm going to measure every single person. So maybe Stacey does refer somebody to me and then you know what? Maybe, maybe Warren Buffett refers somebody to me and you know, then maybe the Dalai Lama refers somebody to me and I put it on LinkedIn and all these other people come my way.

[00:58:59] [00:59:00] It gives me the opportunity just like we talked about in sales. So this is where the parallel is. When I know exactly who I should be doing things with, I can say no, and I can say yes very easily. And so here's the thing I'll tell, I'll ask people, are you using a scorecard? Yeah, we have one. Then they share it with me.

[00:59:18] And it's like, well, three of your categories aren't filled out, but all these other ones are good. And it's like, you don't even know what the weight is and it's the sum of the parts. Look, there isn't a perfect person. I hate to break the news to everybody here, but there is somebody that's perfect for you, but they're not going to be a perfect human being.

[00:59:38] And so I believe that if you have somebody that has 75 percent of what you need, that's really cool. There will always be 27, 25 percent that's missing. Can you live with the 25 percent though?

[00:59:51] Stacy Havener: Oh, that is good. That is so good, Amy. So If [01:00:00] I'm sitting here listening to this and I'm hiring for sales, um, obviously you talked about shiny object syndrome.

[01:00:08] I have dollar signs in my eyes and the shiny object for me is when that person comes in and says they've done a hundred million in sales or raised billions of dollars or whatever, whatever industry we're in. They're like, that's, that's what I want. That's my metric. And so I think they stop, they just sort of stop at that.

[01:00:29] Like what they've raised money. So then they must, they must be right for me. So I want to unpack a little bit, just some examples. And I'm thinking about things like if I put myself in the shoes of, of fund managers, I know could one like is an example, something like I need them to be. I don't know.

[01:00:49] Entrepreneurial, maybe it's not the right word, but like independent and, and created enough to sort of solve things on their own. Because I think there's also a [01:01:00] salesperson that wants, you know, the playbook or needs the founder all the time. Is that the type of thing when you're saying like, come up with the criteria, are these qualitative things that really sort of.

[01:01:13] Our layer just down on the numbers.

[01:01:16] Amy Volas: So what I like to do is I like to go through an exercise of like, tell me everything, right? Like, tell me why, tell me what, tell me who you think it is. Like, let's, let's do this. And then, um, I'm not going to give up all my secrets. So for anyone, like, here's the fun thing, regardless of tech or not.

[01:01:33] We also consult with companies to go through this so that they understand how to do it. So some of the stuff that they, that, that we do, Stacy is like. Just like throw up all over the page. Let's let's think of it.

[01:01:45] Stacy Havener: Yeah.

[01:01:46] Amy Volas: And then I start looking for themes, right? Where it's like, okay, so this is

[01:01:51] Stacy Havener: your double Oh seven nature coming out here.

[01:01:53] Amy Volas: This is my superpower speaking very loudly. And I start hearing things where it's like, so for example, [01:02:00] um, in sales, I believe that there are four superpowers. That a sales leader can have. And by the way, I didn't come up with this. Actually, Doug Landis, who is a dear friend of mine that has spent time on the VC side, um, and, and the operating side, he wrote an article when he was at Emergence Capital about this.

[01:02:20] And I saw it and I was like, he is, he is speaking my love language. Then I took his article and I made it my own, right. Where I'm like, oh, I put these buckets, but the definitions of how I see it. That's going to tweak a little bit. And we use that as a starting point of a North Star to say, you're going to want all four.

[01:02:40] You're going to want the superpower person. You want them to be a superpower. You want every single one of them. But here's the thing. They're human. They're only going to have like one, two. So you have to pick, you have to pick based on where your business is right now, not where you see it in 25 years from now.

[01:02:57] And so like one of those is you're a process [01:03:00] manager. And I have the definitions of how I see it, but then I, I will make them pick two. And then when we go through our discovery process, I have them define it for me. Like how do you think about process? Some people, so I'll give you an idea of like how this starts.

[01:03:17] Well, you want a process person and that like we're talking about and people are like, yeah, process. Yes. That makes sense. Of course. Process. Okay. Now this is where I become a pain in the neck, but I also become very, very useful for you folks. Okay. Let's talk about what's the process that you have in place today.

[01:03:37] And then all of a sudden it's like, wait, so what, um, what are you using today? Uh, well, and then it becomes like pulling teeth there. I've seen it run the gamut where it's like, we have monday. com. We have notion documents. We have shared Google sheets. We have slack. We have, [01:04:00] um, a CRM and what defines pages.

[01:04:03] That's our process. But really where we need this person to focus on process is we have this, but the stuff doesn't talk to each other and it's like in bits and pieces and our teams confused. And that's the kind of process person that I need to come in. I need them to come in, audit the mess out of this, take a forensic approach, fix the broken pieces, bridge our gaps.

[01:04:23] Help us understand where we're strong and where we're weak and what our opportunities are And then bring it to life and make it repeatable That's one part of process and some of you might be listening to this and be like, yeah, that's me And then somebody else is like, yeah, I need process and so then I start going through i'm like So what does process look like for you?

[01:04:40] And they're like, well, um, I just do it. I'm like, well, what does that mean?

[01:04:44] Stacy Havener: Yeah, totally. That's the founder. The founder said that.

[01:04:49] Amy Volas: All the time. And it's like, well, you know what? I, I mean, I've got it in my email and it's, it's in my head and you know what? Like [01:05:00] before they start. I'll create a process doc.

[01:05:03] Yeah.

[01:05:04] Amy Volas: And then, you know, what happens is you're busy running the team and you don't, and then you wait for them to get there. And then you're like, you can, you can shadow me and get out of my skull. No, that's only going to make it harder and worse. If not a failure. And so. Then I can do something. It's like, ah, okay.

[01:05:21] So that's a different kind of, so this is what I mean by 50 shades of gray of how we very good. I'm just very good. This example of like, it's a big word or I need somebody to develop strategy or I need somebody, this is my favorite one. I need a builder. I need like, Oh, it's like gritty. Hardworking, Swiss army knife, adaptable, they'll just roll with the punches.

[01:05:46] I don't need to hold their hand. They love to build. And so I laugh and I'm like, okay, so this happens on the talent side too. I'm a builder. I love to build. I want to build. And I'm like, okay, what did you build at [01:06:00] Google, sir? That's where you are right now. What did you build? Well, you know, I was hired and I built out this new algorithm.

[01:06:06] That is a different kind of build. So, you know, Stacy, I live in an old home, just like you do. This is over a hundred

[01:06:14] years

[01:06:14] Amy Volas: old. I renovated the mess out of this house from stem to stern. That is considered a kind of build. And by the way, I used some of the same kinds of trades people that now I'm building a home on a Lake from scratch from dirt.

[01:06:30] And while I'm still using some of the same kinds of trades where I bring them in, what I need, why I need it. I'm technically building a home for me and I know what I want it to look like. But all of a sudden, I didn't even realize this up at the lake, I have a design that is, um, really meant for folks that live in Australia with different climate than, uh, northern Michigan.

[01:06:59] And we [01:07:00] didn't even consider that we needed an extra kind of engineer for our roof because I have lots of glass all over the place that, um, I'd have to consider this thing called a snow load on the roof. Thank God my builder knows what's up and I have the right builder because the folks that I used for this would have no idea.

[01:07:20] Stacy Havener: Great analogy. That is so good, Amy. This has been a masterclass in founder led sales, transitioning, Off of founder led sales to founder managed, which I love. And then hiring. Thank you so much for this. Um, I mean, I could talk to you, I could talk to you for hours as you know, about everything, but this is just so helpful.

[01:07:46] And I'm so honored that you would share some of your, your wisdom and 007 skills with us today. I want to, I want to end with a couple of questions. about you because of course this is all about backstory and the people behind the portfolios and the [01:08:00] people behind the process. Um, can I ask you some questions,

[01:08:05] Amy Volas: please?

[01:08:06] Um, I just have to say,

[01:08:08] Stacy Havener: yes, please.

[01:08:09] Amy Volas: Thank you. This was a lovely conversation and you know, me, I would venture to guess the majority of the people listening to this do not know. I mean, I probably should have started with this. So maybe in the introduction disclaimer, I'm not yelling at any of you. I'm not yelling at anybody.

[01:08:24] I get. Super nerded out about this and it's in my veins. I'm half Italian. So it's like, this is why it matters. So none of them are getting yelled at. This is really just my, um. As they say passion coming through because I care a lot about this and hopefully my intention is to always be helpful not to yell at anybody.

[01:08:43] So there's that.

[01:08:44] Stacy Havener: Well, and I will and my I have adopted one of your sayings because I also tend to be a little bit impassioned just a smidge. And one of my favorite Amy Amy isms. Is i'm i'm saying this with peace and love[01:09:00]

[01:09:01] Don't you say that I say that now when i'm doing consulting i'm like this is said with peace and love Just

[01:09:07] Amy Volas: want you to

[01:09:08] Stacy Havener: know. Yes, right

[01:09:09] Amy Volas: Yes.

[01:09:10] Stacy Havener: Okay. Here we go All right, what book? inspires you

[01:09:16] Amy Volas: Uh, I love this book. This book was recommended to me two years ago now. I think I've recommended it to you, the self reliant entrepreneur.

[01:09:25] Stacy Havener: Oh, I read it every morning.

[01:09:26] Amy Volas: Mm hmm.

[01:09:27] Stacy Havener: Tell people what it is. It's fantastic.

[01:09:29] Amy Volas: So it's this gentleman that wrote this book and he basically takes. Old school philosophy and brings it into the new and a lot of it comes from like the industrial age of America and it's interesting because it's brought now and it'll tell you what, um, like what the lesson is there or it'll tell you like what the thing is.

[01:09:54] And then it kind of ties it together as to why it matters. And then you have white [01:10:00] space to write about it for you. So it's a daily forced journal practice on very specific questions about very specific themes, where I have had breakthroughs, enlightenments, how things go together. So, I mean, obviously I love to write stuff down.

[01:10:15] So this book was meant for me and the way that I do it because I come back to the book. This is now the second year that I've come back to it is I take sticky notes. And I put them in each day. Then at the end of the year, I take them out and I start over again. And so then I have years worth of sticky notes.

[01:10:31] Stacy Havener: I am also doing that because you told me to do that. So FYI take that right outta Amy's uh, playbook. Great

[01:10:40] Amy Volas: choice there, Amy. Post it by the way. Hey, post it. Could you please gimme a kickback on that? Thank you very much.

[01:10:45] Stacy Havener: Totally. Hashtag add. Hashtag ad, right? Okay. So, okay. Now we're going to transition from books to places.

[01:10:54] What place inspires you? What's your happy place?

[01:10:57] Amy Volas: Where I'm building our second home, the lake. We have a [01:11:00] place on a lake. I will not say what the lake is because I don't want it to be ruined. Um, but it is a very, very, very special spot. It takes me back to my childhood with my grandparents. Uh, I spent all my summers there as a child and, uh, it has now become this amazing spot for my husband and I, and it just refills my cup.

[01:11:21] Anything with nature and nature and water and the nature and water and birds. All of that totally speaks my love language. And so this is why I have to worry about snow loads so that I can have those that I can just be in nature. That's right. Thanks. So

[01:11:35] Stacy Havener: it's going to be stunning. All right. Now we're transitioning from the lake to a stadium because now you are taking the stage.

[01:11:45] You're going to give a talk to a stadium full of your adoring fans. And before you come out, they're playing a song, your hype up song, your walkout anthem. What is it going to [01:12:00] be?

[01:12:00] Amy Volas: It's just like a little snippet of this song because the rest of the lyrics don't really, don't really, they're not really what I want for the rest of the stage, but

[01:12:09] Stacy Havener: yeah,

[01:12:10] Amy Volas: the beat and just the phrase is totally my jam.

[01:12:14] It's Taylor Swift. Are you ready for this?

[01:12:16] Stacy Havener: What? Why don't I know that song? I feel like the worst Taylor Swift fan on the planet right now.

[01:12:22] Amy Volas: It's from her reputation. Yeah. And it's like that first song where it's, it's like got a really good beat and she's like, Ooh, yeah, it's really good. And then it's like, she talks about, are you ready for this?

[01:12:34] But then the rest of the lyrics, it's like what she's talking about, what she's ready for. Like, that's not what I'm on stage to do there right, right in that moment. It is a good, um, walk up song for me.

[01:12:46] Stacy Havener: Okay. I am listening to it right after this. Um, and I'll be texting you. Okay. So now what profession other than your own, would you like to attempt?

[01:12:59] Amy Volas: I mean, [01:13:00] Oh, well, I was going to say, duh, it would be James Bond, but that, that isn't good in reality. That's in my life. No, cause you'd

[01:13:07] Stacy Havener: be dead. You'd be dead in one second. You said, so we can't have that.

[01:13:10] Amy Volas: That, that would be, um, in my fantasy brain. Yeah. In real life. Uh, one of the things that I love to do and I'm not creative in any other way, but I am creative in this way is I absolutely love to cook and I like to create in the kitchen.

[01:13:31] And so I would totally have a little bistro and it would only be for like brunch, lunch and early dinner. And it would maybe be like 10 to 15 tables, but where I'm amongst the people and I'm just like. Sharing my love of this with people to like fuel their belly and their soul and to create a space where people are having fun and they're enjoying what they're eating and it's [01:14:00] like one of those places that like is packed.

[01:14:01] It's kind of like, don't judge me people. This is my strange addiction when I've had a long day. It's kind of like Emily in Paris, that, that chef, that little like beast. Like I see it that way.

[01:14:15] Stacy Havener: So cute. Oh my gosh, that is great. Okay, flip side. What profession would you not like to do?

[01:14:21] Amy Volas: Uh, oh, there are many, many professions.

[01:14:25] Anything that requires math or science because I still use my fingers to count and I'm married to a CPA for a reason. So, um, I don't want to be a data scientist. I don't want to be a mathematician. Like all of that stuff. No, thank you. There are plenty of people. That's going to be a no for me.

[01:14:40] Stacy Havener: That's a no for you.

[01:14:41] Unique ability teamwork all the day long. Um, and last but not least, and this is certainly not anytime soon, but what do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the industry?

[01:14:56] Amy Volas: Uh, that I made a difference. And I [01:15:00] actually like helped them that the stuff that I was evangelizing this whole time actually did something to improve their world.

[01:15:07] I

[01:15:08] Stacy Havener: think people say that now. I say it now. Um, I mean, my gosh, you are real talk. You are so real and your advice. Is what people need to hear. Not always what they want to hear. And everyone needs somebody like you in their corners. I'm lucky. Um, I'm lucky that I get to get you the real Amy. Um, and our listeners are lucky that they got a glimpse today, too.

[01:15:34] So thank you so much for this. Amy. This has been fantastic.

[01:15:38] Amy Volas: Thank you. You know, I don't know how to take a compliment. So I will say thank you. And what I will say right back is and you are that for me. And what a gift. Yeah. And I am grateful. And thank you for it. The invitation, hopefully anybody that spent time listening to this, that they got something from it that they could actually do something with.

[01:15:55] Stacy Havener: Yeah,

[01:15:56] Amy Volas: because that's always my goal is when I'm talking out loud that it actually means something [01:16:00] that's not just vitriol.

[01:16:01] Stacy Havener: And it's so true. And if people want to connect with you, follow your work, all of those things, should they come find you on LinkedIn? Which, oh by the way, is where Amy and I became friends.

[01:16:13] Or what's the best place?

[01:16:15] Amy Volas: I'm certainly on LinkedIn. I also Avenue talent partners dot com. Both of those have gateways to connecting with me directly. Um, it's easy to find me. I think I'm the only Amy Bullis on on LinkedIn. Actually, there could be other people that are bots that are impersonating me. I will say it will be very easy to realize whether it's a bot or it's me.

[01:16:38] So Avenue talent partners dot com or, uh, LinkedIn.

[01:16:41] Stacy Havener: And if they want, if we want to be like, first to know about your book, how do we do that?

[01:16:47] Amy Volas: Um, well, that's giving me sweaty palms. And so I know I've been, but I

[01:16:53] Stacy Havener: want to be in the list. Like, do we have to be on your email list? Do we subscribe? Is that who's going to find out first?

[01:16:58] Amy Volas: Uh, I will probably talk about [01:17:00] it on LinkedIn first. And then you, like you, you're giving me sweaty palms and I'm like, I know I have to create this like landing page to do that. I haven't done that yet. Um, so I am still finishing up the manuscript that is the gift that keeps on giving in my life that I just can't seem to stop doing.

[01:17:15] And so, uh, LinkedIn will be where I talk about it

[01:17:19] Stacy Havener: when

[01:17:20] Amy Volas: it's ready.

[01:17:21] Stacy Havener: Wonderful. Perfect. Thank you so much, Amy. Um, and I'm going to be Taylor swifting and texting you. So we'll be talking momentarily. Don't even worry about

[01:17:29] Amy Volas: that. This is my pleasure. Thank you. And, um, I can't wait to hear what you think about my song now.

[01:17:36] Watch like, this is what happens when. I talk way too much and I get nerded out is I start mixing up sayings and I start mixing up titles of stuff. So I probably just gave you the wrong title of the song. Just, you know,

[01:17:51] Stacy Havener: well, we're going to find it. We're going to find it. We'll just be listening to the whole album.

[01:17:55] It's going to be great. It's going to be a great Friday here. Um, all right. [01:18:00] Thank you. Thank you. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products or to adopt any investment strategy.

[01:18:16] Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Havener or Havener Capital Partners.

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