Episode 85: Meet Kristof Gleich – President & CIO of $50B Harbor Capital Manager of Boutique Managers

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Struggling to stand out to allocators? Wondering why your pitch isn’t landing?

Kristof Gleich has sat on both sides of the table. Today, he’s the President & CIO of $50B Harbor Capital, but before that? He spent 8+ years leading manager selection at JP Morgan, fielding pitches from managers just like you.

In this episode, he and Stacy dive into:

• Kristof’s path from physics to finance—how he went from studying physics to landing his first finance job at Goldman Sachs right after 9/11

• What actually makes a fund manager stand out (hint: it’s not tweaking a model or slapping “contrarian” on your deck)

• Why it pays to celebrate even the smallest wins as you grow your fund 

• Harbor Capital’s approach to backing emerging managers early (and why he believes more allocators should follow suit) 
  

About Kristof Gleich:

Kristof Gleich joined Harbor in 2018 and in 2020 was appointed CIO of Harbor Capital Advisors, Inc. He has oversight responsibility for our Investment, Distribution & Marketing and Executive Office functions. He provides insight while helping lead Harbor’s strategic growth plan. Prior to joining Harbor, Kristof was a managing director and global head of manager selection at JPMorgan Chase & Co. He earned a B.S. in Physics from University of Bristol. Kristof is a CFA charterholder.

TRANSCRIPT

Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors. 

[00:00:00] Kristof Gleich: I get between six and eight hundred emails a day in my inbox, so the chances are like I probably won't even read the email.

[00:00:07] Stacy Havener: Right.

[00:00:08] Kristof Gleich: It's much better to target these 10 people with a handwritten note for 10 people than try and send an email to a thousand people. You'll have a much, you'll have not only will you have a better hit rate, you'll actually have more.

[00:00:21] Kristof Gleich: responses.

[00:00:24] Stacy Havener: Hey, my name is Stacey Havener. I'm obsessed with startups, stories and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys club, Wall Street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques. You could say against the odds.

[00:00:44] Stacy Havener: Yeah. Understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales, [00:01:00] and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college, mixed with happy hour.

[00:01:09] Stacy Havener: Pull up a seat, grab your notebook, and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the Billion Dollar Backstory Podcast.

[00:01:21] Stacy Havener: When I think about my idealistic vision of the asset management landscape, it's very different than today. Today, it's a zero sum game. The big fish win at all costs. They eat the little fish. In my vision, the big fish feed the little fish. Today's guest makes me believe that a healthy, vibrant ecosystem of generalists and specialists, bigs and boutiques could be real.

[00:01:55] Stacy Havener: Meet Christoph Gleich. He is the president and CIO of Harbor Capital [00:02:00] Advisors, a 50 billion manager of boutique managers. Harbor specializes in boutiques and they do it in a big way. While Christoph's current role is on the asset management side of the desk, he also spent over eight years on the allocator side as head of manager selection for a little shop you might know.

[00:02:23] Stacy Havener: J. P. Morgan. So today's convo is Kristoff's backstory, it's advice from an allocator, and it's insights into a special future story that is ours to write. You are going to love this one. Meet my friend, Kristoff. Kristoff, thank you so much for being in the studio with us today. This is a really cool episode.

[00:02:49] Stacy Havener: I mean, all the episodes are cool. But what's super cool about having you here is that your journey touches on so many different parts and roles of [00:03:00] our listeners from allocator to boutique, to manager of boutiques, to all the things. So thank you so much for joining us.

[00:03:08] Kristof Gleich: Thanks for having me, Stacey. I hope I don't, I hope I don't disappoint.

[00:03:12] Kristof Gleich: I mean, we haven't recorded it yet. So hopefully it's going to be a cool website.

[00:03:16] Stacy Havener: I have so much faith in you.

[00:03:18] Kristof Gleich: Okay.

[00:03:19] Stacy Havener: Okay. Let's start. With your backstory, my favorite part of the conversation.

[00:03:24] Kristof Gleich: Mm hmm.

[00:03:25] Stacy Havener: And I'm gonna give you sort of the, you know, this is a, a blank slate for you to talk about. What I'd love for you to touch on is, this is the hardest part, by the way, some of the, the messy middle, like on the journey, was there something Along the way, where, you know, it was tough, it was, it wasn't clear.

[00:03:48] Stacy Havener: Like, sort of the messy parts of the story. Yeah, yeah. That's what I want. That's the good stuff. That's the popcorn. Okay. Floor is yours, my friend.

[00:03:56] Kristof Gleich: Okay. Wait, do you want me to go right back to the beginning?

[00:03:59] Stacy Havener: You [00:04:00] can. Okay. Go right back. Like, did you always know that you wanted to be sitting here in Chicago, leading Harbor?

[00:04:07] Stacy Havener: Like, was that your dream? Was that your vision?

[00:04:09] Kristof Gleich: Definitely not.

[00:04:10] Stacy Havener: Okay. Start there.

[00:04:12] Kristof Gleich: Alright, so I, I'll start with where I'm from, so I'm from the UK, born and raised, and I grew up in a, my family is originally from Poland, so my grandparents on both sides are Polish, were Polish, sorry, they're no longer with us, and they had to flee Poland during the second world war and ended up as refugees in the UK.

[00:04:40] Kristof Gleich: And so I was always kind of aware of being a little bit different in the UK, you know, sort of British born and, you know, born and bred, but very much like a different kind of background and a different culture and a different heritage. So I guess that gave me sort of a slightly different beginning and a different sort of perspective and a different appreciation of certain things, which I still [00:05:00] try and carry forward, uh, to today.

[00:05:03] Kristof Gleich: Uh, what we're next. I studied physics at Bristol University. Um, so I guess I'm a little bit of a science geek. I never studied, I never studied finance. I never studied economics. Um, I, I wanted to kind of study what I found interesting. And I was always more like mathematically and scientifically kind of curious and inclined, aka I was terrible at languages.

[00:05:32] Kristof Gleich: So I studied physics, which I enjoyed, but I, I, I would have been a really bad physicist. And so as I kind of was, because I wasn't smart enough, like physicists, like proper physicists are really smart, fake physicists like me, you know, not, not so much, but I look, they taught me a lot of things I, I, I did, I did enjoy it on the, on the whole, but then I suppose as I was going into my twenties, I had to think [00:06:00] about what I wanted to do for a career.

[00:06:03] Kristof Gleich: And I decided on finance. This is the early two thousands. And in, I was going to go and move to London and I joined, I was really lucky looking back. I got a place on Goldman Sachs graduate program and I remember turning up, you know, bright eyed, bushy tail, not really having the first clue about what I was about to get myself into.

[00:06:28] Kristof Gleich: And, uh, but it was great. It was a great place to start, met a lot of smart people, learned a lot and that was kind of what began my journey. In the field of finance,

[00:06:37] Stacy Havener: so I love your honesty that you would have been a not so great physicist But I so I want to pull that not the not so great part forward I want to pull the physicist part forward because my guess is that there's something from that part of your journey that really informs this part.

[00:06:56] Stacy Havener: So I want you to keep going with the story, but I want you to have that thread in the back of your [00:07:00] mind. Cause I want to talk about how that, how your training as a physicist actually shows up today. Cause I bet it does.

[00:07:07] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, no, it definitely does. And it does. In more ways than I guess I appreciated as a young, as a young man, right?

[00:07:16] Kristof Gleich: And so, um, and then I'll get to the, some of the popcorn stuff as well in my, in my later twenties. So how does it present itself? So I'm very like curious, like I like understanding how things work, why things are the way they are and Don't just take things at face value, like understand from a first principles perspective, how something might work now that might be very different in physics from finance, but in finance and in my role allocating, you know, Boots, looking for boutique managers, kind of understanding that I am understanding their backstory from a first principles perspective, why they think, why they believe the way that they do, why, why should something kind of like logically make sense?

[00:07:59] Kristof Gleich: So [00:08:00] sort of deconstructing problems, um, intellectual curiosity as well is a big one. And I always talk to younger people about this. If, if there's one thing that I look for in anybody, okay. Hard work aside, like that's kind of table stakes, but it's just that intellectual curiosity To to click in, you know, go deeper and understand on another level and another level and what I under what I learned through physics as well is that our scientific understanding of the world is constantly changing and constantly evolving and it's driven by the scientific process.

[00:08:40] Kristof Gleich: But if you look at like the scientific model of the world 200 years ago versus today, like it's totally different. Like some of the stuff 200 years ago is still true. But a lot of it has been developed upon further. So it's continuously changing, I suppose. And I think that was also happening in the world and in finance as well.

[00:08:58] Kristof Gleich: And so I kind of [00:09:00] never standing still, always looking to improve. And, uh, you know, scientists were pretty in an innovative and creative bunch as well. So, and I, I like sort of taking that and applying that in my own small way to find out. I

[00:09:13] Stacy Havener: love it.

[00:09:14] Kristof Gleich: So. So I did, I did, uh, Goldman Sachs and I began my career right after 9 11, like about a week after 9 11.

[00:09:24] Kristof Gleich: So that was obviously a shocking, and I wasn't in New York, I was in London, but just people are, I guess, in a way shaped by events that happen at the beginning of their career. And that was. One that, uh, that tragedies, you know, stood out, obviously stuck in my mind, but just for the listeners, that's when I began, roughly began my career.

[00:09:45] Kristof Gleich: And I changed jobs at Goldman after about four, three years, I moved from the finance division. Into asset management. I hated finance I've got many great [00:10:00] colleagues here who I love who work in finance. If any of them are listening, please don't take offense But as bad a physicist i'd have been i've been a worse accountant And so I found myself on this kind of track to accountancy at Goldman in the finance division.

[00:10:16] Kristof Gleich: And I made a switch to asset management and that's where I began my career as an investor and began sort of selecting money managers for clients to invest in, institutional clients, private wealth clients, kind of all of the above. So that was kind of like a big break and a fork in the road. Um, but I kind of on, unwittingly or unknowingly sort of took this big fork in the road that I still I guess still kind of on today because that's where I began the sort of the craft of investing and I love it and I've been doing similar things sort of since and then so their little thing called the financial crisis happened in 2008.

[00:10:58] Kristof Gleich: And I've been at Goldman for [00:11:00] about eight years. I thought I'd done pretty well. I got promoted. I got these titles. I think I was an executive director and I'd always got good reviews. I was studying for my CFA and I was always being told like, you know, what a great contributor you are. And then I came in one day and I got fired and yeah, and it's all right.

[00:11:21] Kristof Gleich: I got, I see you look shocked. I

[00:11:22] Stacy Havener: mean, yeah, no, I mean, I love that you're sharing this also because that would be, that would be such an, I mean, keep talking cause that's, that's rough to walk in and just realize that. Yeah,

[00:11:33] Kristof Gleich: no, no. Well it, it, it, it was rough and, but look, the financial crisis happened. Goldman Sachs, uh, you know, they're still going, they're still doing all right, I think.

[00:11:46] Kristof Gleich: They've gotten over me, but you know, hopefully they regret it, or someone does. But, so, they, they, um, you know, as happens in a thing like that, there's a big sort of cyclical pullback, cost cutting, and [00:12:00] They, they decided to consolidate kind of what we did more in New York rather than London, which was kind of deemed as a satellite office.

[00:12:07] Kristof Gleich: But it was definitely a painful lesson to go through where you'd sort of been succeeding, you know, year after year, or at least you thought you had, and then suddenly. Be told that you're, you don't have a job anymore. You're not allowed to come into work and like your whole life and routine and everything is kind of disrupted.

[00:12:25] Kristof Gleich: Now, look, I acknowledge these are all first world problems, but for me, that was a big shock. And, uh, you know, it taught me a few things and I, I suppose one of them was to like, not, Be defined as a person only by what I do for work

[00:12:39] Stacy Havener: Ah,

[00:12:40] Kristof Gleich: yeah,

[00:12:40] Stacy Havener: I run a pause on that like I really want people to let that sink in

[00:12:45] Kristof Gleich: Okay, because

[00:12:46] Stacy Havener: that's huge.

[00:12:47] Kristof Gleich: I gotta give credit to my wife.

[00:12:48] Stacy Havener: Okay, please do

[00:12:50] Kristof Gleich: no. No, she says that I mean i'll give her credit There you go. You're listening She says that as well. She's always like, you know, don't just be defined by who you are, you know, at work. And look, [00:13:00] work's a big part of my life and I love it. It's a big passion of mine, but there has to be sort of more beyond that.

[00:13:06] Kristof Gleich: And that was, I suppose, uh, a harsh lesson I learned during the financial crisis.

[00:13:11] Stacy Havener: So thank you for sharing that. And also to that point about being defined by your work, I think it's true whether you're an employee, Or a founder and i'm not even sure Like my gut says if you're a founder Perhaps you're you have a propensity to be more defined by it because of all like maybe but but i'm not sure I'm, not sure because as an employee you're giving everything you have and so much loyalty to your employer that you, I could also see somebody make a case in the other direction.

[00:13:47] Stacy Havener: Either way, it's pretty shattering. It's pretty shattering to have that happen. And for anybody who's listening, who's been fired or has left a job and felt defined by that role. [00:14:00] Maybe, like, what advice, like, how did you bounce back from that? Because now you're sitting here with this great job, so obviously, like, you're doing okay too.

[00:14:08] Stacy Havener: Goldman's doing fine, so are you. So, how did you bounce back, or how did you, like, steal yourself after that?

[00:14:14] Kristof Gleich: So, I guess, as you were sort of talking, you made me think, like, what I didn't like about it the most was, This notion of somebody else had control of my life. Like I wasn't, I wasn't the, my own like principle in my life.

[00:14:26] Kristof Gleich: It was a bit of an agent sort of problem. I never really thought about it until you just started talking. So that was, I, I guess like be, be in control of your own life as much as possible. And for me, I, I wasn't then. And that's, I suppose what I didn't like about it. So I, I'm pragmatic as well. It's, I think you.

[00:14:47] Kristof Gleich: Uh, my mother, I'll quote her, she had this saying, and it's not original to her, but she's always, she used to say to me if I was asking for something as a kid or whatever, she would say, Kristoff, you know, beggars can't be

[00:14:58] Stacy Havener: choosers.

[00:14:59] Kristof Gleich: And so I [00:15:00] think I've translated that to, There's preferences and constraints.

[00:15:04] Kristof Gleich: And I always think in the world, every decision I make, like what are my constraints and what are my preferences, understand your constraints first and then focus on your preferences and just be kind of matter of fact about that. So taking that framework. It was a financial crisis. I needed a job and I got whatever job I could get as quickly as possible because I didn't want a long gap on my CV because long gaps on, sorry, resume, long gaps on resumes don't look very good.

[00:15:33] Kristof Gleich: And so I managed to, within a month or so, line up another job. Which I'm very grateful for. And it was at a firm called Arcatas, which is part of AXA.

[00:15:43] Stacy Havener: Okay. And they

[00:15:44] Kristof Gleich: were kind of like a, a boutique within AXA that does all of the manager research for their wealth and insurance stuff business.

[00:15:50] Stacy Havener: Okay.

[00:15:51] Kristof Gleich: So that was good, but it wasn't, it wasn't for me and it was quite retailing, it was quite nine till five.

[00:15:56] Kristof Gleich: And it just, it was very different from [00:16:00] Goldman. And then, so I, I hung out there for about 18 months and it was quite helpful actually, because during that 18 month period, I kind of met and then got married to my like now wife and that never would have happened if I'd stayed at Goldman, because I'd have just been focused on, you know, working.

[00:16:18] Kristof Gleich: Every single hour got sent and so that was kind of a life lesson and that that actually these Good can come out of bad, right? So, you know not to get too philosophical and then Having sworn I'd never go and work for another American bank ever again in my life I joy I joined that little boutique firm called JP Morgan.

[00:16:38] Kristof Gleich: Yeah

[00:16:39] Stacy Havener: Yeah.

[00:16:39] Kristof Gleich: You know, startup, startup. Startup. Yeah. So I joined, I worked at J. P. Morgan for about nine years, I think it was initially in London. And then in New York, and that's how I got over to the States and JPMorgan was an awesome place is an awesome place. I love Jamie Dimon. I think he's one of, if not the best [00:17:00] CEO in the world.

[00:17:01] Kristof Gleich: And I, you know, I learned a lot there and that was where I began to learn, get leadership opportunities and managing people and mentoring people. And that was something that I really enjoyed doing and apparently was. And so I got promoted and did a move to New York and ran this big global team, uh, within wealth management where we were responsible for allocating, selecting, hiring, firing, you know, money managers from across the world on our platform.

[00:17:31] Kristof Gleich: So that was pretty cool as well.

[00:17:33] Stacy Havener: Yeah. And so how many people were you managing there? Just like, was that a big team of researchers? Yeah. 65. Oh my gosh. That's yeah. Okay. So it was a big, it

[00:17:46] Kristof Gleich: was global. So it was, you know, North America, uh, LATAM, EMEA, Asia. And, uh, yeah, it was cool. It was really good. And if we, you know, that being in that seat, everybody wants to meet with you.

[00:17:59] Stacy Havener: Oh gosh. [00:18:00] And

[00:18:00] Kristof Gleich: I obviously thought, I obviously thought everyone wanted to meet with me cause I was charming, but it wasn't the case. No, it was, everybody wanted to meet with me because the name at the bottom of my business card, not the top, uh, you know, JP Morgan, right. And, uh, but it was good. You got lots of exposure and it was, it was a great role and, you know, man, managing a global team of.

[00:18:20] Kristof Gleich: different, you know, cast of characters. Um, yeah, it was great. It was great. I've still got a lot of friends there. So

[00:18:26] Stacy Havener: how did you, okay, keep going, keep going. Like I'm in, I've got the popcorn.

[00:18:31] Kristof Gleich: Okay.

[00:18:32] Stacy Havener: Yeah.

[00:18:32] Kristof Gleich: All right. You're good. Right. So then JP Morgan, uh, so now I'm kind of 20 years into my career and working for like Goldman or JP Morgan, like it's really good, but it's really tough.

[00:18:46] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, and you know going back to my i'd never like dreamed growing up dreaming of like i'm going to work for these big like american investment banks and I think the easiest way to [00:19:00] describe it is when you get to a certain level At those companies you get two jobs You get the job of managing the ecosystem of all of the internal stakeholders and how to navigate all of that.

[00:19:13] Kristof Gleich: And then you have the job that you're actually hired to do. And it's just, it's really, it's really hard work. And I'm looking, I'm not afraid of hard work, but I, I was getting away from what I love doing. I was getting away from the markets. I was getting away from investing and it was more about process management.

[00:19:30] Kristof Gleich: Um, regulatory compliance, risk management, people management, which I love, but at the end of the day, I wasn't as fulfilled at the end as I was, and I wanted a new challenge and I'm not brave enough to be an entrepreneur. Um, but it's funny circumstances happen this, this role. So I'm at Harbor Capital today.

[00:19:54] Kristof Gleich: I'll quick bit on Harbor Capital. So we're an asset manager. We have just over [00:20:00] We have about 250 employees, which is, you know, a lot by boutique standards, but JP Morgan had 255, 000 employees. So it's whatever. I can't even do the math in my head, but it's a small, it was as much smaller company, much more focused.

[00:20:17] Kristof Gleich: And, uh, but it was a mutual fund company. that needed to bring some outside talent or thinking or expertise in to help rethink the company, reshape the company and put the company on a growth trajectory. Because what Harbour had was actively managed mutual funds and with a domestic orientation and what the market didn't want.

[00:20:41] Kristof Gleich: Was actively managed mutual funds with domestic orientation And so it was a really a big challenge for me to leave The big comfort of a of a firm like jp morgan to leave the wealth management side and jump to the asset management Yeah, and now this was an industry that [00:21:00] i'd had a lot of Exposure to, you know, during the selecting managers, working with managers, launching products and so on and so forth, but I, I was just kind of excited about jumping to the other side of the table and uh, becoming an asset manager.

[00:21:14] Kristof Gleich: And so I've been here for six and a half years and I live in Chicago. That's the background behind, uh, with my wife and three boys. So it's a pretty cool, love Chicago, love Harbor. So yeah, pretty, pretty happy with, with life so far.

[00:21:31] Stacy Havener: It's so great. Thank you for sharing that now at the time. So quite clarifying questions When you joined harbor, were they always sub advised?

[00:21:40] Kristof Gleich: Were

[00:21:40] Stacy Havener: they always sub advice? Okay. Yeah,

[00:21:42] Kristof Gleich: they were so

[00:21:43] Stacy Havener: so that's a key point that I want everyone listening to hear because I Already got permission from christoph to have To go back to his allocator days and get some advice and feedback and stories from there. But what I find interesting about your [00:22:00] role is actually, even though you hadn't been on the asset management side, in my opinion, your perspective is almost more valuable in some ways because you've been on the other side.

[00:22:13] Kristof Gleich: Yeah.

[00:22:14] Stacy Havener: And because you've been selecting managers. So we always talk about, you know, put yourself in the shoes of the people you serve. You were in those shoes.

[00:22:21] Kristof Gleich: I was, I still kind of am in a way. Yeah. And that's, so

[00:22:25] Stacy Havener: that's the other interesting point. You still kind of are. So talk more about that just in case people aren't familiar with Harbor, just kind of talk about your business model a little bit.

[00:22:33] Kristof Gleich: Okay, cool. So what we do and quick, we, we used to be the pensions and investments department for the largest glass manufacturer in the world called Owens, Illinois, or, um, oh, I glass like, so if you, if you have one of those old school, um, Coca Cola bottles underneath, it will say, oh, I, that's all I glass.

[00:22:53] Kristof Gleich: That's it, so that's our, that's our origin story and our, we used to pick the [00:23:00] managers for the defined benefit pension plan and that's how we began investing in outside managers. Flash forward to 1986 as the industry went to, from defined benefit to defined contribution, we needed to launch mutual funds so the plan participants could allocate to those mutual funds in their 401k.

[00:23:19] Kristof Gleich: So we basically launched a bunch of mutual funds with third party managers running them. So we kind of got into the sub advisory business. By accident. But we had some great managers and we grew and, you know, we can kind of go into that if you want, but that, that was our origin story. So what we do today is we generally, we partner.

[00:23:42] Kristof Gleich: With boutique managers that we think have a secret source or specialize specialization. Sorry if I can speak that they can generate alpha. They can generate strong, you know, risk adjusted returns. Um, and we hire those managers not as an [00:24:00] employee of harbor, but to run a fund for us. Historically, it was mutual funds, but now it's really ETFs exclusively.

[00:24:07] Kristof Gleich: And so we've made a big bet on active ETFs and the growth of active ETFs. And so then those managers, those boutique specialized managers. Do the day to day security selection and then we help distribute and grow, you know, invest with those managers and we like to do it at the more boutique end of the market because I, you know, we believe that if you want different outcomes from the market, if you want to deliver active outcomes, you've got to be think differently to think differently.

[00:24:36] Kristof Gleich: You've got to think independently and you tend to get more of those. Behaviors happening in kind of independent boutique firms and big monolithic and do everything.

[00:24:49] Stacy Havener: Yeah.

[00:24:50] Kristof Gleich: And so that's, that's what we, we try and bet on this on the, I guess the small guy or gal, uh, rather than the big one.

[00:24:57] Stacy Havener: Well, you know, that's music to my ears and everyone [00:25:00] listening high five specialists.

[00:25:02] Stacy Havener: So Cool. I have to ask about the active ETF thing, because that's a big, that's a big bet.

[00:25:07] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, it is.

[00:25:09] Stacy Havener: So what was the, so like, did you sunset the whole mutual fund business?

[00:25:13] Kristof Gleich: No, no, no. So we've got, we've still got our mutual fund. You've still got it. Okay. Yeah, we've still got our mutual fund. Because that's a

[00:25:17] Stacy Havener: big business.

[00:25:18] Kristof Gleich: Yeah. It is. And it's still, look, it's still a big business for us, but I think it's important to be wherever you are. Be somewhere you got to strive for growth. Yeah, you have to like you have to grow. I'm sorry you have to aim for growth and that doesn't mean growth doesn't mean like Just grow AUM because you want to earn more fees and you're greedy and you want to earn more money or anything like that I mean just having a growth mindset Means looking forward to the future It means trying to improve.

[00:25:48] Kristof Gleich: It means just trying to get better every single day is kind of a growth mindset. And if you do that, well, in business or an industry that then manifests itself through, you know, growth, like economic growth, [00:26:00] AUM, whatever, whatever it is. And so when I joined, we were a mutual fund company. We had some great managers.

[00:26:09] Kristof Gleich: We had some great performance, but we weren't in the vehicle or the format that the consumer or investor wanted anymore. And so if we didn't change, we would, we were going to be an X growth company. And I think if you acknowledge. Your destiny of becoming X growth, everything goes into a downward spiral.

[00:26:30] Kristof Gleich: Like you, you can't attract talent, you can't keep talent. And it just, so we had to sort of think about how do we become a growth company again? And, you know, for us at the time and still is today, active ETFs are going to play a huge part of that. And look, the analogy I'll give is just, you know, we live in a world of, um, like in terms of entertainment, streaming today,

[00:26:55] Stacy Havener: you

[00:26:56] Kristof Gleich: know, if we were stuck in [00:27:00] the old world, it's like selling DVDs and the new world is streaming.

[00:27:05] Kristof Gleich: And so for us, you don't

[00:27:06] Stacy Havener: want to be blockbuster.

[00:27:08] Kristof Gleich: No, you don't. Apparently there's still one blockbuster left. There's a Netflix documentary on that, which is pretty good, but no, so the more serious point is. If I think about what is our content equivalent, it's the managers, it's the alpha, it's the performance, it's the outcomes that they can kind of drive, how clients want to consume that content, whether it's a separately managed account, a CIT, a mutual fund, an ETF.

[00:27:34] Kristof Gleich: So we wanted to become sort of vehicle agnostic. Rather than just a mutual fund company and that was a big moment and that's actually that bet's paid off pretty well so far So we now we now have more etfs than we do mutual funds Despite the fact we've been in etfs for just over three years and we've been doing mutual funds for 40 years

[00:27:56] Stacy Havener: wait, you have more actual vehicles or more [00:28:00] aum or both

[00:28:00] Kristof Gleich: more vehicles more vehicles, but not

[00:28:02] Stacy Havener: more aum What's that?

[00:28:04] Stacy Havener: And so the aum is the bulk of it is still in the funds

[00:28:06] Kristof Gleich: Yeah. So

[00:28:07] Stacy Havener: about, about, about

[00:28:09] Kristof Gleich: 70 percent of our assets today are in kind of traditional single sub advised mutual funds. And about 30 percent is in the newer stuff like ETFs that we, that we've been doing.

[00:28:20] Stacy Havener: Okay. So I have a question. This is obviously not a prepared question.

[00:28:24] Stacy Havener: So if you hate this, you can tell me you hate it and we don't have to talk about it. to that last point.

[00:28:30] Kristof Gleich: Yeah. So

[00:28:30] Stacy Havener: you have some peers who do something very similar with one big difference.

[00:28:36] Kristof Gleich: Right.

[00:28:37] Stacy Havener: Stakes. So let

[00:28:39] Kristof Gleich: me, so

[00:28:40] Stacy Havener: taking stakes. So when, what you just said right there where you're like, Oh, you know, if you've got this great manager and you don't want to let the vehicle get in the way, do you ever take a stake in a manager or is that just like, have you thought about that?

[00:28:53] Stacy Havener: Is that not the business model? I'm just curious. Cause you're so right. And by the way, I've lived this [00:29:00] too.

[00:29:00] Kristof Gleich: Yeah. So we, we've looked, we've done it. We have done it, but it's not, it's not a core part of our business. It's when you start to take stakes in managers and you begin to, I guess, veer away from the independence of those managers, it starts to complicate.

[00:29:21] Kristof Gleich: So our, our model and look that we, we have a one very minority stake in one of our managers. He's done well, and we've got a great relationship with them, but it's not something that we've leaned into. It's just, it's, it's difficult. And we've, we've found it, it complicates more than it actually aligns. So, you know, never, never say never, but it's not something that I would see us doing in the next year or two.

[00:29:48] Stacy Havener: Okay. So instead, so when you're vetting these managers, What are you really, I know, okay, we, we've established their boutique.

[00:29:57] Kristof Gleich: Mm hmm.

[00:29:58] Stacy Havener: We've established they have an, an [00:30:00] edge or a specialty.

[00:30:01] Kristof Gleich: Mm hmm.

[00:30:02] Stacy Havener: What are you, like, how are, what are you looking for? So you meet them. Let's say they have that.

[00:30:06] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:30:07] Kristof Gleich: Right?

[00:30:07] Stacy Havener: They have that. Now, what are you looking for? And I want to talk more about the qualitative, less about the quantitative. Obviously, be good at your job. So there we go. Table stakes, like generate alpha. But like, what else are you looking for?

[00:30:20] Kristof Gleich: So I'll tell you, I'll tell you what we're not looking for.

[00:30:22] Stacy Havener: Okay. That's fine too. Yes.

[00:30:24] Kristof Gleich: We're not looking for an upside down triangle with an investment universe and a portfolio at the bottom. And, um, I do, I still do let anyone that can get really enthusiastic about that. I'm sort of a piece of my soul dies and leaves my body every time. So, look, we're looking for, um, original, like, thinkers.

[00:30:47] Kristof Gleich: Um, we're looking for people that are mission driven, and, like, they're so kind of obsessed with what they're doing, and they have so much belief, they're sort of, they're betting their livelihood. [00:31:00] Um, on it as well and yeah, for look for us, there has to be something very different and differentiated that's difficult to replicate that the likes of, you know, Vanguard or BlackRock or iShares can't just, you know, Vanguard or iShare it away.

[00:31:18] Kristof Gleich: And so that's sort of, you know, the geeky term is alpha, right? When you think about returns. There are, you know, different premiers that exist, risk premiers, factor premiers. And then there's that thing called skill leftover or alpha. So we do really, we do look. Quantitatively at, you know, return streams.

[00:31:38] Kristof Gleich: And we do really try and disaggregate what, what, where returns are coming from, what is skill oriented versus what is just, you know, faxes and things like that repackaged, which you can just buy for next to nothing, you know, in a factory TF. So philosophically we do hold ourselves [00:32:00] accountable to like, you know, looking a lot at the quant.

[00:32:03] Kristof Gleich: And then once you see something. That looks like it's alpha. You then, you're right, you have to spend an awful lot of time kind of qualitatively understanding like what's contributing to that edge that they have. And I generally, I think there's three sort of types of edge that people have. There's number one is like an interpretational or research edge, which is just where individuals or teams are just really good at like long time research, and they're able to take like an elongated longer time horizon.

[00:32:36] Kristof Gleich: And they're able to spot, you know, secular growth at a better rate than the market can. That's sort of like a traditional sort of fundamental research. And there's a sort of, I think, really interesting at the moment, you can, the second edge is sort of a data or technology edge. You can get an informational advantage again, a legal one, by the way, because when Reg FD came in [00:33:00] in 2000, you know, active management got, um, got much harder because it became fairer.

[00:33:06] Kristof Gleich: And by the way, that was totally the right thing to do. Because if you think before Reg FD, active managers were probably just stealing alpha from uninformed retail investors without like they would legally doing it. But if you think about the mental. Sort of constructs. That's what was happening. And so it became harder to generate alpha, but now with data and technology.

[00:33:30] Kristof Gleich: You can, via a mosaic theory, I think, get an informational edge, again, if you do it very, very well and you invest a lot of money into different data feeds and into technology systems that can kind of synthesize all of that data. So that's the second one. So we've got some of those as well. And then the third one is, um, I would describe as like a process edge or process discipline, which doesn't sound like the most exciting.

[00:33:57] Kristof Gleich: Staying back. Uh, sometimes investing is [00:34:00] really difficult and really lonely, like take being a value investor. If you want to, if you want to be a value investor, you better make sure you're really disciplined to your process and that you hammer yourself to the mast and you ignore the call of the growth sirens.

[00:34:17] Kristof Gleich: And over the long run, you can generate alpha. Uh, but if you start to deviate or give up on yourself, then it's all going to erode. So I feel sorry for those PMs because it's a really lonely place to be. But those, so those are the sort of three categories and then it's trying to like unpick which, what, what are we looking at here?

[00:34:39] Kristof Gleich: Who's doing what? I'll give you just a couple of examples. So

[00:34:42] Stacy Havener: yeah,

[00:34:43] Kristof Gleich: I, we work with a firm out of London called Blue Cove and they do scientific or systematic fixed income investing and they run like three different funds for us and they're still very much a boutique, but they began life. about probably six years ago [00:35:00] now.

[00:35:00] Kristof Gleich: And we, I was very early when we met with them. I knew the founders from my previous life in, in London. Uh, but they had a vision that now was the right time to disrupt fixed income investing. And actually you can take a technology and data oriented approach to fixed income. That's very complimentary to discretionary fixed income.

[00:35:23] Kristof Gleich: And actually you can generate. Really strong, high quality returns by doing so, uh, but nobody, nobody was doing it. And so it was sort of to try and understand like, well, why is nobody doing it? What's changed? Why can you do it now? And in that perspective, they had no like live track record. You had to sort of think about this from a first principles perspective and then partnering and ultimately going through that underwriting process.

[00:35:49] Kristof Gleich: And then being there kind of day one, more or less, and then just seeing the field begin to establish itself, beginning to grow, get more attention, and [00:36:00] most importantly, to see the returns and actually the sort of hypothesis that you had, or we had, begin to realize itself through really strong returns. I love it.

[00:36:11] Kristof Gleich: That's sort of what gets me, gives me goosebumps about the job when you. When you see something like that early, it's original, it's different, and then you execute upon it. You lean into that kind of unknowable future. So that's what investing is. It's investing in the unknown, but sort of trying to discount it.

[00:36:29] Kristof Gleich: And now we have this, you know, wonderful partner and we have these. Um, ETFs that have a really strong track record with Blue Cove and I just, I take a lot of gratification seeing them realize their vision and hopefully playing a small part in helping them do it.

[00:36:46] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I love that. And I, I very much vibe with that whole riff that you had there.

[00:36:52] Stacy Havener: I have, I have questions.

[00:36:53] Kristof Gleich: Go on.

[00:36:54] Stacy Havener: So first, I love the three. Types of, of, of differentiators or edge. That [00:37:00] was really cool. I also like what you said about Blue Cove, which was like, there's a philosophical edge that shows up in the three that you just outlined. Because one of the things that's hard for managers sometimes to tap into is like, what do you believe That your peers don't believe either, right?

[00:37:24] Stacy Havener: Like there's your peers believe something to be true and you don't, that is in and of itself a differentiator. And then that is going to express itself in some, uh, in some way of those three differentiators that you outlined. Right. So I loved the philosophical piece that you said about blue coat.

[00:37:39] Kristof Gleich: Yeah. I look, I think that the hardest for any active manager, you have to be.

[00:37:46] Kristof Gleich: You have to get two things right. You have to be, you have to think that, you have to be different from everybody else. Mm

[00:37:51] Stacy Havener: hmm.

[00:37:51] Kristof Gleich: And you have to be right.

[00:37:53] Stacy Havener: Yeah,

[00:37:54] Kristof Gleich: no

[00:37:54] Stacy Havener: big deal.

[00:37:55] Kristof Gleich: No big deal there, that's easy. And obviously not all the [00:38:00] time, but I think that's sort of another way of saying that your, your point, you've got a, I don't Find enough money managers like internalize kind of what they're doing the why Like what it really is and they need to do a better job of tell that story tell the narrative

[00:38:16] Stacy Havener: Yeah,

[00:38:17] Kristof Gleich: you know, you know in an authentic way.

[00:38:20] Stacy Havener: I agree. Well, yes that I mean, hello That's my entire business. So yes to that

[00:38:28] Stacy Havener: Are you an investment boutique looking to grow your business and need a little help If you feel like you're fighting for the spotlight and, well, still stuck in the shadows of the bigs, join us in the Boutique Investment Collective, Havener's new membership community dedicated to the specialist in the investment industry.

[00:38:44] Stacy Havener: In the collective, we'll guide you through the billion dollar blueprint we've used to help boutiques add over 30 billion in AUM. You'll refine your story, focus on your ideal target market, and practice your pitch. You'll rethink your marketing materials, rewrite your [00:39:00] emails, and refresh your differentiators.

[00:39:02] Stacy Havener: We'll even help you step up your LinkedIn game and give your profile a makeover. You want to grow your biz? We've got your back. Learn more about The Collective, the curriculum, and the amazing coaches who will help you on your journey. Visit havenercapital. com slash collective. High five! Hope to see you in a coaching session soon.

[00:39:36] Stacy Havener: It's interesting because now, whatever, I'm just piling on, but because you could have somebody that says, Oh, I'm a value investor. And my process is really different. And instead of the triangle, we use an octagon or something. Right. And so it's like, that's not enough. So I think that's where it's like the difference also has to be big enough.

[00:39:58] Stacy Havener: To matter [00:40:00] in other words You can't just say like everyone else looks at this one thing and I look at this one other small Thing differently. It's not enough like you got to go all in on the different you got to be high stakes different

[00:40:14] Kristof Gleich: And but you've got to be able to like one of our value managers Who's yeah, great great guy like he describes his portfolio as like the tree.

[00:40:21] Kristof Gleich: All right, this is his portfolio He's never run a cons queen in his life and he never will Does that mean I think QuantScreens are a bad idea? No, absolutely not. Right. Starting managers, they work really, really well. We have another value manager, QuantScreens is an integral to that process.

[00:40:36] Stacy Havener: There you go.

[00:40:36] Stacy Havener: But

[00:40:36] Kristof Gleich: then this manager describes their portfolio as like this tree and the roots as like this network. And the more that they kind of focus on the tree, the more the roots grow, and then the more the roots are taking them to other companies and other ideas.

[00:40:50] Stacy Havener: Yeah. But actually

[00:40:51] Kristof Gleich: all of their, all of their idea generation comes from their portfolio holding companies and just going deeper and deeper and deeper into their [00:41:00] portfolio companies and learning more and more and more.

[00:41:02] Kristof Gleich: And I think that's a really cool way of expressing it to me. It's like, okay, that, that makes a lot of sense to me, but that's not them saying, you know, we don't focus on price the book. Cause

[00:41:15] Stacy Havener: it's not different enough. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:41:18] Kristof Gleich: But you have to be good as well. You have to, so that's

[00:41:21] Stacy Havener: like, that's a given you gotta be good or no one cares.

[00:41:24] Stacy Havener: Um, all right. Now, my other question about the blue Cove story of two is. So it sounds like you were there day one.

[00:41:33] Kristof Gleich: Mm hmm

[00:41:34] Stacy Havener: early.

[00:41:34] Kristof Gleich: Yeah,

[00:41:35] Stacy Havener: so tell me about that. Like, are you willing to to? Partner with a manager. Is there an asset level at which you're like can't do it?

[00:41:43] Kristof Gleich: No, we'll partner we we know periodically we've spoken to managers that have before they've left

[00:41:51] Stacy Havener: I love that.

[00:41:52] Kristof Gleich: So look for us earlier the better Um, as long as there's no kind of like non compete stuff that we get involved in. [00:42:00] But for us, like the earlier, the better. In my old role, um, I, and in the sort of gatekeeping community at large, I think there's more of a tendency to wait for three years, which I think is a shame because I think if you see an idea or an opportunity and you believe in it and you have investment conviction and you underwrite it, you can make some really good returns.

[00:42:22] Kristof Gleich: By leaning in and taking a bit of career risk and one of the things that I think I did quite well at JP Morgan Uh less at Goldman because I was younger, but I just as I sort of matured and became more confident as a person is Backing managers like earlier in their life cycle or realizing there was a marriage of what was happening at the macro level and what this manager was able to do and putting those two things together and you know, the, the, some of the whole, sorry, the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

[00:42:52] Kristof Gleich: And so I would, I hope more people can do that because if you're always waiting for three [00:43:00] years or a hundred million or 500 million AUM. It just creates barriers to entry for Young, not younger by age, but younger companies, more entrepreneurial companies, and it gets in the way of the innovation process.

[00:43:14] Kristof Gleich: Now, not all innovation is good, but I just think having a sort of a flexible mindset around that. And so I always, I always tried to have that as much as I could. even inside a big organization like JP Morgan that had lots of controls and risks, but, um, they, they were actually pretty good at that. And, and I, so I brought that forward.

[00:43:36] Kristof Gleich: And of course at Harbor, we don't, you know, necessity is the mother of all invention. We, we are not, we cannot wait for like five years for a boutique manager to say, Hey, you know, look at my. We got to get in earlier. And that's what I love about what we, what we do is we, we can lean in and we want to find these boutiques early.

[00:43:57] Kristof Gleich: Um, so yeah, that's what we do.

[00:43:59] Stacy Havener: Yeah. So, [00:44:00] you know, I love that. And I agree with that. In fact, there's a, there's a podcast. I'll send you the link after and we'll put it in the show notes, but there's a podcast that I love. I've, I listened to it like at least once a year. This episode and it's about tech

[00:44:15] Kristof Gleich: rather than the whole podcast, which is just one this specific This one

[00:44:18] Stacy Havener: episode.

[00:44:19] Stacy Havener: I mean, it's a very it's a very well known podcast. So it's very good but this one episode I just keep coming back to because It's about a woman who's Who was basically trying to facilitate another Silicon Valley, but outside of the U. S. Yeah. And she riffs on this idea that a healthy ecosystem, a healthy industry ecosystem, as the big firms get bigger.

[00:44:49] Kristof Gleich: Yeah.

[00:44:50] Stacy Havener: So, think of, as the big fish get bigger, bigger. Yeah. They would actually feed the, the small fish. In an unhealthy ecosystem, the big fish just [00:45:00] eat the big fish or want to kill the big fish. They just want them out. And every time I listened to this episode, and if you think about it, so one more point before I tie it to asset management.

[00:45:10] Stacy Havener: Every time I, when I listen to it, you think about like all the founders that have been successful in tech, all big generalization, they make all their money. And then what do they do with it? They invest it in the next generation of founders who are doing the next cool things. And then guess what? They make a whole bunch of more money.

[00:45:28] Stacy Havener: Right? So they realize that this ecosystem is not only important, profitable, right? Then you take it to asset management and it's just. Everybody kill each other.

[00:45:41] Kristof Gleich: Oh, yeah, you're right. I mean,

[00:45:42] Stacy Havener: it's like what are we doing? Where are the firms now? This is where i'm tying it to you So it's very refreshing For me to hear that there are firms like Harbor and at JP Morgan, even when you were there, maybe still, where it's like, we're willing to take, [00:46:00] you know, put capital at risk with a startup or an emerging manager or a boutique, because that's actually what you need to have in a healthy ecosystem.

[00:46:10] Kristof Gleich: Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And so that's, you know, that's why we we'd like sponsoring and then partnering with managers. And then at the flip side as well. You know our longest standing manager that we've worked with we've worked we've had an sma with that manager for 52 years

[00:46:28] Stacy Havener: Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

[00:46:30] Stacy Havener: And so if you think

[00:46:30] Kristof Gleich: about the the wealth that that original account has created for the clients Uh, it's amazing But so sometimes like so we I guess the way I think of our business sort of a portfolio of different partners and relationships We have Some of them are very early stage and are growing, and some of them Oh, I like

[00:46:49] Stacy Havener: that.

[00:46:50] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, and some of them are much more mature, and it's, I guess, you know, in life it's good to have a sort of a balance across all of them to have a healthy ecosystem.

[00:46:59] Stacy Havener: So good. [00:47:00] I wanna switch gears to the allocator, to the, to your allocator days.

[00:47:05] Kristof Gleich: Yes. The

[00:47:06] Stacy Havener: glory days.

[00:47:07] Kristof Gleich: The glory days, yeah.

[00:47:08] Stacy Havener: Yeah. Because I, I'm guessing this doesn't happen as much anymore, but one of the things I enjoy talking with my allocator friends about.

[00:47:15] Stacy Havener: It's just the emails and like all you, you alluded to this before, like everyone wants to meet with you. Every fund house, every asset management company wants to meet with you when you're at JP Morgan, you're an allocator, you've got that title, you've got cash. And I want to give some advice because the emails that you must have received, I mean, I've seen some of them, I've heard.

[00:47:41] Stacy Havener: Cause I've had to edit them for clients. I mean, they're pretty bad. They're pretty bad. They're pretty bad. So what advice do you have for a boutique who wants to meet with a Harbor or an allocator or JP Morgan, whomever it is, like, how should they go about doing that when [00:48:00] you don't know them from.

[00:48:01] Kristof Gleich: All right.

[00:48:02] Kristof Gleich: I'll give you an easy one.

[00:48:03] Stacy Havener: Okay.

[00:48:04] Kristof Gleich: I get probably between. I still get them. No, so I get between six and 800 emails a day in my inbox. And how many hand, how many hand like delivered notes do I get sent a day? Maybe one a week. Maybe one every couple of weeks. So there's your answer. By the way, I don't read six to eight hundred emails a day.

[00:48:32] Kristof Gleich: Does anyone? No

[00:48:33] Stacy Havener: one can. You can't.

[00:48:34] Kristof Gleich: Exactly. So you end up, like, creating these shortcuts and heuristics. So the chances are, like, I probably won't even read the email.

[00:48:41] Stacy Havener: Right.

[00:48:42] Kristof Gleich: But if you wanted to, I guess, try and have something catchy. In the title, in the subject title. Um, but just, I think sort of go, go old school and traditional, and it's much better to have a more targeted, like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to [00:49:00] target these 10 people with a handwritten note for 10 people than try and send an email to a thousand people.

[00:49:07] Kristof Gleich: You'll have a much, you'll have not only will you have a better hit rate, you'll actually have more. responses and so I don't know. how scalable that is though. It's not for everybody but for me

[00:49:18] Stacy Havener: Yeah, but scalable? I mean, here's the thing like to your point Um, and I just did a post on linkedin about this today.

[00:49:25] Stacy Havener: I think there's this misconception that in order to have a good Or even great business, you need to have massive quantity of investors.

[00:49:35] Kristof Gleich: No, you don't. You need to, if you

[00:49:36] Stacy Havener: don't,

[00:49:37] Kristof Gleich: you need to find a few fans to start with, with, and then you need to build around them. But hey, look, it's hard, right? It's easy to say, just find a few, but like, okay, well how Right everyone?

[00:49:48] Kristof Gleich: You start with a lot and then hope, but yeah, you're right. You just, there's no. There's no such thing as like too small, no, no small win is small enough not to celebrate when you're at the beginning of a [00:50:00] journey, you know, whether it's a 50, 000 investment from somebody into a fund or you just, you've got to, you've got to ring the bell, celebrate everything.

[00:50:09] Kristof Gleich: And then you start to, you know, get some more positive momentum and things build on themselves a little bit more. So I'd say for me, emails are not a great way of doing it. So I, I love investors that take the time to write, I wish I did this more myself, but take the time to write down what they're thinking and commit and memorialize that and save it on their website, you know, so I can go and say, well, what were they doing in Q3, 2017?

[00:50:41] Kristof Gleich: Oh, I'm going to go and have a look. It's just, it creates such a treasure trove of. History so that when five years later or seven years later you are talking to someone That quarterly investment letter that you wrote seven years ago that you thought no one read Well, maybe no one did read it, but that one person might now be [00:51:00] reading it and it's helping them You know connect the dots and build conviction and i'll just so I think those are really good They don't have to be you know, 10 pages long, you know, but just Two pages, something like that.

[00:51:14] Kristof Gleich: Just memorializing what you're thinking and why. I think, I think those are, don't think they're used enough, but I always read people, you know, Howard Marks, he's such a good writer. Oh, so good.

[00:51:24] Stacy Havener: You know, we had a client once, it was a hedge fund, which of course, you know, they never. They don't share anything with anyone.

[00:51:31] Stacy Havener: It's so secretive. But this particular, this particular founder did write these letters. And so when they were spinning up a new fund that I was helping them with, somehow I caught a glimpse of, of something and I'm like, what's, what's this? And I'd get this sort of workbook looking thing. And it was exactly what you said.

[00:51:48] Stacy Havener: It was actually a, a collection of letters from various sort of inflection points in the market over the years that they had pulled together and put into this like workbook, like just sort of [00:52:00] not a fancy hardcover book, just this thing. And I said, give me all of those. How many of those do you have?

[00:52:05] Stacy Havener: They're like, you want these? These are like in the founder's garage. I said, get them, get them all and give them to me. Because I'm like, this is gold.

[00:52:14] Kristof Gleich: That's a, that's a good, um, that's a really good idea. And I, you may be So even if I think they've got Even if you've got notebooks in your garage, right? And you've got like notebooks about a company meeting that you did before a company became known and you had like just something jotted down like a thought or whatever it was, like take a photo of it, photocopy it, stick it up like on a library.

[00:52:36] Kristof Gleich: I remember, um, who's the Fidelity guy that runs the Contra Fund? Will?

[00:52:41] Stacy Havener: Um, I know who you mean, yes.

[00:52:43] Kristof Gleich: Will Downing or something like that. Maybe we can correct this in the notes. He showed me his notebook when I was in Boston and the notebook he showed me, pulled out of his desk drawer Was from like, the late 80s, and it was his [00:53:00] first meeting with Starbucks.

[00:53:02] Kristof Gleich: Oh, how cool is that? And it had in his hand, like, what he had written about Starbucks. And I was like, holy shit. Sorry, teased my language. Yeah, that's okay. I was like, that's really, um, yeah, left a deep impression on me. So it made me, anyway, good idea, is what I'm saying.

[00:53:17] Stacy Havener: It's true. Well, you, it was your idea.

[00:53:19] Stacy Havener: And I think, I think the point is, for people listening, do the things that don't scale.

[00:53:25] Kristof Gleich: Yeah.

[00:53:25] Stacy Havener: Do the things that don't scale. Who cares? Yeah. Just do them. You don't actually need scale as much as you think you do to have a really great business.

[00:53:33] Kristof Gleich: Yeah. That's well said.

[00:53:34] Stacy Havener: Yeah. All right. I want to switch gears.

[00:53:36] Stacy Havener: I have some questions for you to help us get to know you a little better, though you've been very candid and I've loved, I've loved this conversation. I could talk to you forever.

[00:53:46] Kristof Gleich: But

[00:53:46] Stacy Havener: I want to do one more question and I'm trying to think what it should be I feel like it should still be a little bit.

[00:53:52] Stacy Havener: Well, I mean you're still kind of in the allocator seat But I think one of the things that's difficult for people and maybe i'll ask [00:54:00] you to share Um how you've squared this on your journey because you've worked at very big places Is um, it is the idea that we have to be a certain thing or person, like fit a mold, wear the Patagonia vest, get the, you know, get the right suit.

[00:54:19] Stacy Havener: I don't know. Right. There's like, and say the right, say the things, throw out the MPT stats in the meeting and follow. This is what you do. This is how you're successful. And I, I would love to hear how you. Thought about that evolved on that in your career because I think it's something that's really difficult For people in our industry to do.

[00:54:40] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, I I don't know. I don't know I don't know what what what to say So look, I I've got three kids, you know, my eldest is 12. My twins are Eight. And, you know, you sort of see living through them at school, like, there's this painful sort of, [00:55:00] um, desire to conform and not be different. Like, it starts at school, and I think it probably starts because if you're different, you get teased or you get bullied.

[00:55:12] Kristof Gleich: And so just in our DNA, it's kind of like a, uh, uh, survival gene is you learn this kind of, you've got to conform to normality. And then I think you kind of carry that forward into your adult years as well. And then what people don't realize is it's the, actually the differences that you have that stand you apart in life.

[00:55:32] Kristof Gleich: And I don't know when, I don't know when that crossover happens. For me it was definitely in my 30s, not my 20s.

[00:55:40] Stacy Havener: I

[00:55:40] Kristof Gleich: think my 20s, I think in your 20s you sort of, You probably have to conform a little bit. Yeah,

[00:55:45] Stacy Havener: I agree with you.

[00:55:46] Kristof Gleich: You can't just sort of sign up day one at work and be like, you know, you know what I mean?

[00:55:51] Kristof Gleich: It would just be like, who is this person? Like, what are they doing? So, so there is, so there's a sort of a balance between [00:56:00] conforming and confidence and maturity. that you can grow into yourself and then the more that you kind of grow into yourself the more comfortable you can be and then you get to a point I think that suddenly the more comfortable you are the better you are and the more people respect you and so I don't know if that's in any way helpful but for me That began to happen like in my mid thirties, probably coincided, you know, things like marriage and kids and just you've suddenly got experience in your career and you just get a bit more confidence.

[00:56:34] Kristof Gleich: But what I would say to my children now is like, don't swear. Not that they'd listen to me. I should say the opposite but it's like don't sweat the differences in fact like lean into them and it's those idiosyncrasies that you have that's gonna like you're gonna be so grateful for them when you're older.

[00:56:50] Kristof Gleich: I remember my mum used to say it to me as well growing up I always be like shut up mum whatever I don't know what you're talking about actually she was right is right. So yeah and [00:57:00] I it's hard to pin down exactly what it is you know it's if It's unlike life can be a bit unfair, right? If you were in an investment meeting, let's say, like, let's say we'll go to Blackstone, the big, like I was just watching Jonathan Gray's, while I think brilliant as well is the quarterly update.

[00:57:21] Kristof Gleich: Imagine if you're on a Blackstone investment meeting and you're a 21 year old analyst, and then you've got Jonathan Gray sat at the end of the table to the 21 year old analysts can say exactly the words with exactly the tone of Jonathan Gray. And it's not. Not only will it not land in the same way, it could have completely the counter effect of like, who do you think you are?

[00:57:43] Kristof Gleich: So, I think there's a point in life where you sort of start to make that crossover. But I don't know, what do you think?

[00:57:48] Stacy Havener: That was great. I don't know either, but I agree with everything you said, so I'm going to keep going with it. Because I agree, and I did really, like, [00:58:00] I look back at decisions and things I did in my 20s and I'm like, Oh, I can't believe I did that.

[00:58:06] Stacy Havener: Like, like they said, don't wear your hair. I wore my hair in a low ponytail. I didn't wear makeup. I bought suit jackets from Brooks Brothers in the boys section so that I could look a certain and like I would never do that now. And that like hurts my soul to think about now, but I. I think I had to do it then because I was 21 and you know,

[00:58:28] Kristof Gleich: I'll tell you what actually what there's something the head of asset management, uh at jp morgan, um, Person called mary urdo.

[00:58:35] Kristof Gleich: She's still there super senior. She once said something And I think she must have said it in a group setting but she said like Dress for the job that you want not the one that you have which I kind of thought in a Corporate kind of way was quite a cool bit of advice

[00:58:50] Stacy Havener: Yeah

[00:58:51] Kristof Gleich: and it was in and I took it sort of as partly as literally but partly as a metaphor as well of like just generally the Way that you kind of carry yourself And so when I [00:59:00] heard her say that I did actually invest money into like having a good suit and that's And I think that's a good thing to do and I made my I'm not wearing a suit now, but if I was, there would be a pocket square.

[00:59:13] Kristof Gleich: Oh, I like that. became like, I don't love wearing ties, but I love like, I hate wearing a suit without a pocket square. I don't know. So, but then.

[00:59:21] Stacy Havener: That's good. That's a good little personal branding thing.

[00:59:24] Kristof Gleich: Yeah.

[00:59:24] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I like that. But now, let's, I have one more thought on this that I'm curious to see how this sits for you.

[00:59:31] Stacy Havener: So I agree, then you hit this point, for me it was, I had my daughter when I was 40, so when I turned 40, I was like, oh, I can do anything, and I, and I shall. So, like, I had this very, like, very confident lot of strength, um, after that experience. And, I think there's a little bit of, If you've done all the things that we've just described, you fit in, you've, you've dressed the part, you've done the things, and then [01:00:00] you don't switch, like you don't lean in at some point in your thirties, forties, you don't start to own that your differences, that to me, Is a red like not a red flag, but that's like that's that's a sadness for me Yeah, I agree with that right like because now you're in a place you you've done things You're you've you've had the experiences and the success you can be who you are And you're still acting like you're the 20 year old at the table with the ceo and you're afraid to say something

[01:00:33] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, I totally agree with that.

[01:00:34] Kristof Gleich: And look I think one of the one of the things at harbour is we try and We want everybody to be the most like authentic and genuine version of themselves. Um, and I think if, if you are the more comfortable that you can feel with being who you are, the more value that you can bring and the more productive and just the better you're going to be, the happier you're going to be.

[01:00:53] Kristof Gleich: So we do definitely spend, um, I think about that a lot, but I think you're absolutely right. I just [01:01:00] think it's a perfect word.

[01:01:01] Stacy Havener: It's sad. Yeah. Like

[01:01:02] Kristof Gleich: at some

[01:01:03] Stacy Havener: point you gotta, you gotta be brave enough to, to, you've, you've earned it. You've put in the time. Okay. So let's end with a couple questions. I mean, if you haven't prepped, this is going to be great actually.

[01:01:16] Stacy Havener: So I'm going to start with one that it could be easy or it could be really not easy, but what, it's not your favorite book, but what book inspires you? What's a book that inspires you? So, you

[01:01:27] Kristof Gleich: know what I, these, I did have a quick look at these questions. Good.

[01:01:30] Stacy Havener: I'm glad because this, because otherwise this would be tough.

[01:01:32] Stacy Havener: Yeah,

[01:01:33] Kristof Gleich: yeah. Otherwise, I don't wanna be caught in the spot. So I will tell you, I'll give you a slightly different answer.

[01:01:39] Stacy Havener: Yes.

[01:01:39] Kristof Gleich: I'm gonna give you an author. Yes. And look, this nothing business related, like

[01:01:44] Stacy Havener: Perfect.

[01:01:45] Kristof Gleich: Rolled out. Oh. And he, oh my God. The amount of. amazing books that he has written for, you know, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Matilda, Fantastic Mr.

[01:01:57] Kristof Gleich: Fox, The Twits, I love, that doesn't get enough, [01:02:00] I love The Twits, it's one of my favorite books, but I'm reading them to my boys, second time around, uh, with the twins at the moment, and I just think there's, I don't know, just like, good storytelling, it's just, it's magic, it's the closest thing to magic that we can get, and how many amazing books and amazing stories And the gift that he's going to give for generating for hundreds and hundreds of years

[01:02:25] Stacy Havener: are

[01:02:26] Kristof Gleich: amazing.

[01:02:26] Kristof Gleich: So there's, there's my.

[01:02:28] Stacy Havener: I love that. So I sidebar tangent. I went to see Matilda when we were in London last.

[01:02:36] Kristof Gleich: Oh yeah.

[01:02:38] Stacy Havener: And I mean. Well, first of all, I love that story and to see it live and the songs and just the emotion of it. I said to my family after I, if I lived here, I would literally go see Matilda every week.

[01:02:49] Stacy Havener: Like, I love it that much. I know all the songs. Like, it's just so, I very much am a plus one on that. Okay, we're switching. From books to [01:03:00] places. What place inspires you? What's your happy place?

[01:03:03] Kristof Gleich: Alright, so, the place that inspires me probably, you probably haven't heard of this place. It's a place called Selhurst Park.

[01:03:12] Stacy Havener: Okay.

[01:03:13] Kristof Gleich: It's the home of Crystal Palace Football Club, and I'm, I'm a massive soccer fan.

[01:03:19] Stacy Havener: Okay.

[01:03:20] Kristof Gleich: And I, there is nowhere else on earth that, like, physical place that gets me as excited, gets the emotions running as highly. It just makes me feel alive in a different way that I can't anywhere else in the world.

[01:03:38] Kristof Gleich: So I know it might be like, oh my God, a sports stadium. But yeah, I used to go there with my dad all, I used to go there with my dad all the time. I took my boys just so I went back for Christmas, um, to a game, and my dad was there as well. So the whole multi just, it's an electric place and an evening game.

[01:03:56] Kristof Gleich: Uh, it just, yeah, it's, it's amazing. But my, [01:04:00] my happy place is Hampton Bays and Long Island. Oh, okay. Yeah, so not too, not too far, not too far from you. We spend a bit of time out there every summer and it's just, it's super chill and um, just get to relax with, with my family and go fishing and go to the beach and things like that.

[01:04:18] Kristof Gleich: And I love it. So that's, that's the one that inspired me in my case. Yeah.

[01:04:22] Stacy Havener: Fantastic answers. And obviously being a soccer player, I absolutely get the electricity of a stadium. Although I've never seen a game

[01:04:33] Kristof Gleich: outside

[01:04:33] Stacy Havener: of the U. S. No, I think I saw one in Italy, but that's it. I've never seen one in the UK.

[01:04:38] Kristof Gleich: Italy's pretty good, but there's something about the Premier League, which is growing now in popularity. It's amazing what's happened in the last 10 years with the popularity. We've got the World Cup coming next year, which I'm really excited about. But yeah, there's something just electric about those moments in soccer, which I just don't think are rivaled in any other sport.[01:05:00]

[01:05:01] Kristof Gleich: Sorry. Sorry. But

[01:05:02] Stacy Havener: I'm, I'm with you, so that's okay. All right. Well, staying with the stadium theme, let's pretend you're at the stadium. You're giving a talk.

[01:05:10] Kristof Gleich: Mm hmm.

[01:05:11] Stacy Havener: You're about to take the stage. What song do they play? What's your, what's your walkout anthem? What song hypes you up?

[01:05:20] Kristof Gleich: Well, I don't know if it's a hype.

[01:05:23] Kristof Gleich: It's a song. Okay. Master Plan by Oasis.

[01:05:26] Stacy Havener: Okay.

[01:05:27] Kristof Gleich: Okay. It's one of my, one of my favorite songs. I guess it's a less of a hype up song, but I love it because I love Oasis. And it's 2025 and they're back together. Oh,

[01:05:39] Stacy Havener: I didn't know that.

[01:05:40] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, they did. They got, they announced they got back together in, so, and they're going to be touring this year.

[01:05:45] Kristof Gleich: I'm actually going to go and see him twice, once in Manchester, which is their hometown. And then they're coming through Chicago. So I'm taking my wife and my boys. So, and I like Master Plan because it was originally a B side song. It wasn't deemed to be like good enough for the, [01:06:00] for the main album. Um, and actually it's become with the passage of time.

[01:06:05] Kristof Gleich: One of their best most famous songs, and it's uh, it's a song about um, embracing the vagaries and uncertainties of life as well Oh, so good. I'm

[01:06:14] Stacy Havener: gonna play that when we hang up. I'm here for that. But it's

[01:06:18] Kristof Gleich: not high energy. You'll probably be like, uh, really? That's fun. But I love it.

[01:06:22] Stacy Havener: That's okay. Look, so here's my, I've done enough of these podcasts now.

[01:06:26] Stacy Havener: I think people choose their walkout anthem one of two ways, typically. What the first way is like the beat and the and the fact that like their energy goes up when the song is on Right like a more physicality sort of thing to it But then there's another group that picks the song for more like nostalgic or lyrical reasons Yeah, and so it sounds like you're in the late in the latter camp.

[01:06:50] Stacy Havener: Yeah, okay, which I think is I love it All right. Now what profession other than your own would you like to attempt?

[01:06:59] Kristof Gleich: I thought [01:07:00] about Becoming a doctor once and sort of even applied for medical school But I went into finance, but I suppose look if it was a dream like sports management

[01:07:11] Stacy Havener: Yeah,

[01:07:11] Kristof Gleich: like going in like so, you know, i'd love to i'd love to do that.

[01:07:15] Kristof Gleich: You know, it's a lot of the same I think a lot of Why athletes win, why sports teams win, there's a lot of parallels between finance as well and, or at least I see them that way. And so yeah, it would be great to have a go at that one day.

[01:07:30] Stacy Havener: Some Moneyball vibes.

[01:07:31] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, oh definitely. Yeah, right? Definitely.

[01:07:35] Stacy Havener: Okay.

[01:07:35] Stacy Havener: That's

[01:07:35] Kristof Gleich: a great, that's a great book as well actually. Isn't that such a great book? It was,

[01:07:39] Stacy Havener: the Brad Pitt movie was just out not too long ago and I was like, God, this movie's so good, I've forgotten how good, this is just a great.

[01:07:44] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, the movie's good as well. I'm glad I read the book first though.

[01:07:47] Stacy Havener: Yes, I agree.

[01:07:48] Stacy Havener: He's a fantastic writer. Okay, flip side, what profession would you not like to do?

[01:07:53] Kristof Gleich: A social media influencer. And look, I [01:08:00] try, I see you're on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, and I Like, I get it, I mostly enjoy it, but to have my whole domain predicated on being famous for being famous, oh, I just.

[01:08:15] Stacy Havener: Oh no, there's a lot of, I don't know if you've read this book, there's a lot of fourth turning in that.

[01:08:20] Kristof Gleich: Oh, that's a good one as well, the fourth, so he just released another version of that. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's a

[01:08:26] Stacy Havener: lot of turnings. Wrapped up in that but yeah, that's

[01:08:30] Kristof Gleich: that's a good but that's another two good books actually called

[01:08:33] Stacy Havener: classic, right?

[01:08:34] Kristof Gleich: Yeah, so i'm but yeah, so being being Being a fit an influencer Look, i'm not on tiktok.

[01:08:40] Kristof Gleich: I'm not on twitter. I'm not on instagram. I'm on linkedin

[01:08:45] Stacy Havener: Yeah, that's my platform of choice. They told me it works, I have

[01:08:47] Kristof Gleich: to be.

[01:08:49] Stacy Havener: Well, it's a good place to be. Um, okay, last question, and this is hopefully not anytime soon, but what do you want people to say about you [01:09:00] after you've retired or left the industry?

[01:09:02] Kristof Gleich: I mean, that I was a good guy. That people, you know, I, I, I'd like people to, I hope I deliver value for clients, right? At the end of the day, that's what we're here for. And I hope there would be a recognition that, you know what? The industry was better with this person in it rather than without them. And I would like, I would like people to sort of remember me as a good mentor.

[01:09:25] Kristof Gleich: As well, I've always, I've always enjoyed that good people person. Uh, I always try and be decent and kind to people, a good sense of humor. Like I like, if I don't laugh multiple times a day at work, it's not a good day. I try, I try and inject, I know we're in a serious profession, but I just try and inject humor into the day to day of what we do.

[01:09:47] Kristof Gleich: And at the same time, not afraid to make tough decisions. Uh, which are hard. I don't like doing them, but to be successful, I think sort of, I don't know, some, some version of all of the above.

[01:09:58] Stacy Havener: Yeah. But

[01:09:59] Kristof Gleich: if people just [01:10:00] said he was all right, I'd be okay.

[01:10:01] Stacy Havener: He's a good guy. Yeah. Oh, him? Yeah. He was good.

[01:10:04] Kristof Gleich: Listen, they're going to say

[01:10:05] Stacy Havener: all of that.

[01:10:06] Stacy Havener: And I think they'd add that you are a real champion of boutiques and there's not that many of us left. So I am really grateful for the time with you. Really grateful for the time.

[01:10:19] Kristof Gleich: Thank you. You're a very good interviewer. That was That was uh, that was a lot of fun.

[01:10:25] Stacy Havener: Oh, i'm so glad to hear that. Thank you That means the world to me And if people want to connect with you, obviously, I know where they should go not tiktok not twitter not maybe linkedin

[01:10:34] Kristof Gleich: Okay, maybe linkedin

[01:10:36] Stacy Havener: Or, or send you or send you a handwritten

[01:10:39] Kristof Gleich: floor, 34th floor one 11 South Wacker Chicago.

[01:10:44] Stacy Havener: There you go.

[01:10:46] Kristof Gleich: 6 0 6 0 6 is the zip code and uh, LinkedIn as well, or christophe.gl at harbor capital.com.

[01:10:55] Stacy Havener: Okay. Thank you so much Christophe.

[01:10:57] Kristof Gleich: Alright, thank you.

[01:10:59] Stacy Havener: This podcast [01:11:00] is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation or recommendation of any of the funds, services or products or to adopt any investment strategy.

[01:11:13] Stacy Havener: Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Havener or Havener Capital Partners.

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